Revelation 12

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by th1bill, Nov 18, 2011.

  1. th1bill

    th1bill
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    Revelation 12:1:
    And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    Revelation 12:2:
    And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. (ASV) 1901

    A description of the church of Christ and of Satan, under the figures of a woman and of a great red dragon. (1-6) Michael and his angels fight against the devil and his angels, who are defeated. (7-12) The dragon persecutes the church. (13,14) His vain endeavours to destroy her, He renews his war against her seed. (14-17) Revelation 12:1 1-6 The church, under the emblem of a woman, the mother of believers, was seen by the apostle in vision, in heaven. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness. The moon was under her feet; she was superior to the reflected and feebler light of the revelation made by Moses. (MHCC)

    It can be tempting to see Mary with Jesus here but we need to remember that these verses are the revelation of Jesus to John about the future to come. If we look at our Church Family today it is in travail and birthing new Christians is more and more difficult and almost worse from day to day. It is my personal belief that, although I have lived a full life and even though I am in the final stage of MS, I expect to live until the Rapture.

    Revelation 12:3:
    And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    Revelation 12:4:
    And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

    Here comes Satan, performing miraculous feats for the world to be amazed at.

    Revelation 12:5:
    And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    Revelation 12:6:
    And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    This is so easily misunderstood but we must remember that Mary did not spend three and a half years in the wilderness. She, led by her husband, Joseph, did escape the murder of the children of Bethlehem by going into Egypt, perhaps the second most developed nation in the world at that time.

    (HCC) A description of the church of Christ and of Satan, under the figures of a woman and of a great red dragon. (1-6) Michael and his angels fight against the devil and his angels, who are defeated. (7-12) The dragon persecutes the church. (13,14) His vain endeavours to destroy her, He renews his war against her seed. (14-17) Revelation of John 12:1 1-6 The church, under the emblem of a woman, the mother of believers, was seen by the apostle in vision, in heaven. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness. The moon was under her feet; she was superior to the reflected and feebler light of the revelation made by Moses. Having on her head a crown of twelve stars; the doctrine of the gospel, preached by the twelve apostles, is a crown of glory to all true believers. As in pain to bring forth a holy family; desirous that the conviction of sinners might end in their conversion. A dragon is a known emblem of Satan, and his chief agents, or those who govern for him on earth, at that time the pagan empire of Rome, the city built upon seven hills. As having ten horns, divided into ten kingdoms. Having seven crowns, representing seven forms of government. As drawing with his tail a third part of the stars in heaven, and casting them down to the earth; persecuting and seducing the ministers and teachers. As watchful to crush the Christian religion; but in spite of the opposition of enemies, the church brought forth a manly issue of true and faithful professors, in whom Christ was truly formed anew; even the mystery of Christ, that Son of God who should rule the nations, and in whose right his members partake the same glory. This blessed offspring was protected of God.

    Revelation 12:7:
    And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    Revelation 12:8:
    And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    Revelation 12:9:
    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    And some, being careful and paying close attention, find themselves in Heaven, before the Earth was created. And then, again, when we read Isaiah 14 we see that this also might be the future encounter, resulting in Satan being cast out once more. My own view is the later of the two making this the encounter where Satan, once more, tries to ascend to the Throne of God. I find the story of Job and God giving permission to Satan to harm Job important to understanding all the possibilities in this portion of the Revelation. Satan, today, still approaches the Throne of God to accuse.

    Revelation 12:10:
    And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    Revelation 12:11:
    And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    And in these two verses we find the reason for my position on this. It is always important and in my opinion, critical, to keep verses of scripture in context.

    (MHCC) 7-11 The attempts of the dragon proved unsuccessful against the church, and fatal to his own interests. The seat of this war was in heaven; in the church of Christ, the kingdom of heaven on earth. The parties were Christ, the great Angel of the covenant, and his faithful followers; and Satan and his instruments. The strength of the church is in having the Lord Jesus for the Captain of their salvation. Pagan idolatry, which was the worship of devils, was cast out of the empire by the spreading of Christianity. The salvation and strength of the church, are only to be ascribed to the King and Head of the church. The conquered enemy hates the presence of God, yet he is willing to appear there, to accuse the people of God. Let us take heed that we give him no cause to accuse us; and that, when we have sinned, we go before the Lord, condemn ourselves, and commit our cause to Christ as our Advocate. The servants of God overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb, as the cause. By the word of their testimony: the powerful preaching of the gospel is mighty, through God, to pull down strong holds. By their courage and patience in sufferings: they loved not their lives so well but they could lay them down in Christ's cause. These were the warriors and the weapons by which Christianity overthrew the power of pagan idolatry; and if Christians had continued to fight with these weapons, and such as these, their victories would have been more numerous and glorious, and the effects more lasting. The redeemed overcame by a simple reliance on the blood of Christ, as the only ground of their hopes. In this we must be like them. We must not blend any thing else with this.
     
  2. th1bill

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    continued

    Revelation 12:12:
    Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    Revelation 12:13:
    And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    Isa. 14:13 And thou saidst in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north;
    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.

    These two verses are applicable to both of the times that Satan is cast down. Once more remember when we read the book of Job we find that Satan still presents himself in the courts of Heaven to accuse the Church and there is found no reason to believe that this will ever change before the Tribulation period..

    It is popular to be a Liberal Christian today because the very term is almost without limit in it´s diversity. But we must remember that Heaven is, in no form, a Democracy! Heaven (my words) is a Theocracy with a Monarch on the Throne with unlimited power! God has not ever been, nor will He ever be, amused by our attempts to unseat Him. When we look at Satan, the single, most powerful being on the Earth we see that he and all of his angels will spend the time from the destruction of the Earth through Eternity in the Abyss. Can the Lost Man/Liberal Christian actually believe they will change the nature of Father God?

    Then there is the matter brought forward in the discussion about Revelation 11 on one of the forums, ¨Did Jesus really abolish/replace or supersede the Ten Commandments?¨ The answer, of course, is no! The words of Jesus, Himself, are critical here. In the much touted (by the Liberal) Sermon On The Mount, Matt. 5:18, Jesus teaches exactly the opposite.

    I often encounter the, ¨Are you for real¨ crowd when I explain this but in Mal. 3:6 we learn that God never has nor will He change, He is the ¨one¨ unchanging constant in all of Creation. And then when we look at John 1:1-3 we learn that Jesus created all things and that nothing was created without Him. That means that He is the God of both Testaments.

    That brings me to the one point I always stand by, ¨The Old Testament, also known as the Jewish Bible, is still the Bible Jesus, Paul, Peter and the rest of the Disciples taught from, making the New Testament the most authoritative Life Application Commentary ever written on the Bible.¨ It is so important that God has seen fit to have it included in the transcript and printing of today´s copies of the Bible.

    Revelation 12:14:
    And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    Revelation 12:15:
    And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    Revelation 12:16:
    And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    Revelation 12:17:
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    (MHCC) 12-17 The church and all her friends might well be called to praise God for deliverance from pagan persecution, though other troubles awaited her. The wilderness is a desolate place, and full of serpents and scorpions, uncomfortable and destitute of provisions; yet a place of safety, as well as where one might be alone. But being thus retired could not protect the woman. The flood of water is explained by many to mean the invasions of barbarians, by which the western empire was overwhelmed; for the heathen encouraged their attacks, in the hope of destroying Christianity. But ungodly men, for their worldly interests, protected the church amidst these tumults, and the overthrow of the empire did not help the cause of idolatry. Or, this may be meant of a flood of error, by which the church of God was in danger of being overwhelmed and carried away. The devil, defeated in his designs upon the church, turns his rage against persons and places. Being faithful to God and Christ, in doctrine, worship, and practice, exposes to the rage of Satan; and will do so till the last enemy shall be destroyed.

    If there ever was any doubt this last verse, in this chapter, settles the issue. To the Jewish believer, the Law was given. Here we find a Church, a Jewish Christian Church, after the Gentile and Jewish Christians are raptured from the Earth and for that to be, there is Salvation during the Seven Year Tribulation.
     
  3. Zenas

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    I don't claim to be an expert on the imagery of Revelation, but I have serious reservations about the woman of Rev. 12 being the church. The church did not give birth to Christ. It's the other way around, Christ gave birth to the church. I believe the woman is either Mary or Israel, both of whom gave birth to our Lord but in different ways. Of course, I also believe that Revelation transcends the entire Christian era.
     
  4. OldRegular

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    You correctly state that Revelation transcends the entire Christian era.

    In my opinion the woman initially represents the "true or spiritual Israel" longing for the coming of the Messiah. After the resurrection/ascension she represents ithe Church. Of course "true Israel and the Church are one as Paul shows in his parable of the olive tree.[Romans 11]
     
  5. JesusFan

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    references are to isreal and the coming of their messiah at end of this Age, in order to redeem that at end of days!
     
  6. OldRegular

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    Nonsense!!!! Read verse 5 JF. The first part is the birth of Jesus Christ. The latter half is obviously reference to the Ascension of Jesus Christ!

    And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
     
  7. JesusFan

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    jesus was born from the nation of Isreal, and when he rules upon this earth at his second coming, then will he have an iron rod over the nations!

    NOT the Church here, as jesus gave birth to the Church, if see it as Mary, than go into more of a RCC viewpoint!
     
  8. OldRegular

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    Your answer is confusing. No one is saying that Jesus Christ did not give birth to the Church. No one other than you has mentioned Mary.

    That being said you are letting your dispensational bias dictate what Scripture says. Who was the child caught up to the throne of God? Nothing in this passage about the return!
     
  9. JesusFan

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    Jesus NOT ruling upon his throne right now though,,,,

    He IS in His High Priestly role for the Church...

    When jesus returns to earth, usher in the Kingdom in fullness upon the earth, then will that be fulfilled, as he will then rule all nations with iron rod!
     
  10. OldRegular

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    You are dodging the questions JF. Verse 12:5 talks about the birth and ascension of Jesus Christ. It says nothing relative to the stuff in the quote above. Try to address what verse 12:5 says.
     
  11. convicted1

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    Jesus isn't ruling now? I thought He defeated satan when He came forth from the grave and was ascended back to the Father?

    Jesus isn't ruling now??? :eek::eek::eek::eek:
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

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    I think you are correct The only O.T. reference to the sun, moon and stars that I can think of occurs in Gen 37:9, so the woman might be Rachel and symbolize the Patriarchs and true Israel. Certainly I think we must be very careful in suggesting that the woman is the Church. The Church does not give birth to Christ.

    Steve
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

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    Not so! Read Psalm 110. The Lord Jesus is King right now (cf. John 18:37), as well as Priest and Judge.

    Steve
     
  14. DaChaser1

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    NOT directly ruling though over all nations, as THAT occurs when he returns and sets up the fulness of the Kingdom upon the earth!

    My definition of Kingship is that ALL nations shall know and fully obey God, that has NOT happened yet!

    jesus right now is in His High priestly role as mediator on behalf of His peoples and the Father, at his second coming, will be in Kingly role, as he will be direct ruling over the earth, no more allowing of satan to control world systems and nations!
     
  15. OldRegular

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    Well said convicted1!

    But when you consider that dispensationalists believe that Jesus Christ failed the first time around and has to try again then don't be surprised at anything they say!
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

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    My definition of Kingship is that of Psalm 110: 'The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!' This is going on right now. You are correct to say that there will be a change after our Lord returns. Verses 5-7 will have taken place, and Christ's enemies will then all be under His feet.

    Steve
     
  17. OldRegular

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    That will happen after the General Resurrection and General Judgment, the Great White Throne Judgment. Satan and his followers will be cast into the Lake of Fire and the Triune God will tabernacle with the redeemed of all time in the New Heavens and new Earth.
     
  18. percho

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    Just some thoughts.

    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Rev 12:2,5 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

    The one and only seed born of woman. Who was also the seed of Abraham.

    This seed died.-----Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the (birth) pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him doth this man stand here before you whole. -----speaking of the risen Christ---This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Eph. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];---The beginning of the church being built on the risen Christ.---

    Gal 3:29 And if ye Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.----because of---Gal 3:2 YLT this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith? 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,-------
    The Spirit of God, the Spirit of adoption puts us in Christ making us children of God and heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ, the remnant by grace of her seed.----We are not begotten of woman but though Christ.

    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen. ----When is shortly?

    When? I believe when we also are born as he was, After she. Zion the church travails. Isa. 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
     
    #18 percho, Jan 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2012
  19. OldRegular

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    Interesting post percho, particularly the verses from Isaiah. Now a few thought from me.

    the promise of the redeemer was first made in Eden before there was ever an Abraham, an Isaac, a Jacob or an Israel, in fact before there wan any race, color, or creed.. That promise of redemption was not limited but it did indicate that sacrifice was required.

    Genesis 3:15
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Now why did God call out Abraham?
     
  20. percho

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    Would you agree that Paul sees the bruising of Satan as coming from the seed of the woman and his remnant?
     

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