Revelation 4:1 - Apostle John "Raptured"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by beameup, Jan 3, 2012.

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  1. beameup

    beameup
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    After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;
    which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet sound:
    for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1 Cor 15:15:52

    I personally believe that each time someone is born again, each time someone comes to Christ, that a "trumpet" is sounded in heaven.

    In this particular case, "the last trump(et)" will signal the very last person to be saved in the current age of grace -
    the last person to become part of the Body of Christ in this age of the Gentile Church, the Bride of Christ.
     
  2. OldRegular

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    No! NO! A Thousand Times NO! The last trumpet will sound at the general resurrection of all the dead when Jesus Christ will return in Power and Great Glory, casting Satan and those who died in Adam into the Lake of Fire.

    Revelation 11:15-19
    15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


    There will be a New Heaven and New Earth where the Triune God will tabernacle with all the redeemed of all time, the New Jerusalem, the chaste Bride of Jesus Christ.:jesus::godisgood::love2:
     
  3. Darrell C

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    Could you give your thoughts as to the resurrection of the two witnesses during the Second Woe?

    I am wondering if you believe these come back to life in physical bodies and are caught up to heaven thus?

    I would also like to know if you believe the seven vial judments run consecutively with the Trumpet judgments, as some do, or if you believe that these judgments are seven more judgments apart from the Trumpet judgments?

    God bless.
     
    #3 Darrell C, Jan 3, 2012
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  4. beameup

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    There's trumpets and then there's trumpets.
    Me thinks it will require a bit of study there Old Regular... :laugh:

    Remember that amplified, computer-generated sounding "voice" of Darth Vader?....
    σάλος (G4535) the idea of quavering or reverberation
     
    #4 beameup, Jan 3, 2012
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  5. OldRegular

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    In about 1830, give or take a few years, a man called Darby came up with his erroneous concept of dispensationalism. Scofield popularized it in this country with the Scofield Bible and many people bought that error, hook, line, and sinker.

    I would also note that several other erroneous doctrines sprang up during the 19th century:

    Jehovah's Witnesses
    Seventh Day Adventism
    Christian Science
    Mormonism
     
  6. OldRegular

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    I do not believe that the two witnesses were men!

    Revelation 11:3-4, KJV
    3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    I could expand on my understanding but doubt that you would agree. Dispensationalists interpret Revelation totally different than I do.

    One further point, actually three:

    1. I will discuss, argue, debate, whatever eschatology with dispensationalists but their opinion on that subject does not really matter, we could all be wrong but Jesus Christ is coming back.

    2. The biggest problem I have with dispensational doctrine is their belief Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that he was rejected by the Jews and established the Church instead. Jesus Christ died for the Church and to say that the Church is a parenthesis in God's program for Israel is a despicable doctrine!

    3. And out of dispensationalism came the heretical hyper-dispensationalism and Paul's Gospel for the Gentiles??????!.


    Yes!
    [/QUOTE]
     
  7. beameup

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    Is this something like copying the Counter-Reformation Catholic position of the 16th Century to try to prove that the Roman Pope was not the Anti-Christ?? :laugh:

    http://jesus-messiah.com/preterist/luis-de-alcazar.html
     
  8. Tom Butler

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    Hmmm. The OP suggested that Rev 4:1 depicts John's rapture, along with the "Church." But, except for quoting the verse, the OP gave no exegesis to prove that's what it meant.

    I say it is an unwarranted inference, since John bounces back and forth between heaven and earth in his visions.
     
  9. beameup

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    hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
    #9 beameup, Jan 3, 2012
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  10. percho

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    1 Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    1 Cor. 15:52,53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality.

    Remember verses 52 and 53 are relative to inheriting the kingdom of God.

    Is that in bold in verse 23 speaking of the same moment spoken of in verses 52 and 53?
     
  11. Tom Butler

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tom Butler
    unwarranted inference,


    Okay, you started this thread. Please exegete the passage. And while you're at it, please explain why John's perspective changes from earth to heaven on occasion throughout Revelation.
     
  12. convicted1

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  13. JesusFan

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    actually, many of the early church fathers were what would be known today as "historical pre mil", as the early church did view there to come a future literal reign of jesus in a Millenium time...

    Darby added in the concept of a pre trib rapture, rest though was already established, he just added on to it!
     
  14. Darrell C

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    You don't?!

    lol...just kidding. Believe it or not, I could probably detail what it is you believe, as I have debated with "Progressive Dispensationalists" that believe that the two witnesses represent Israel and the Church, the Old Testament and the New, basically.

    I have a few problems with that, and I will just ask a few questions and hope for a reply And I will try to limit them for now):


    Revelation 11

    1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

    2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


    In this event, we are again given a specific time period for the events to be fulfilled. First question:

    How is it that if the two witnesses are merely representative of the Church and Israel, the Old and the New Testament (and really properly the Old and New Covenants), or even the picture presented in Zechariah of Priesthood and Kingship...how do we get past the specific timeframe?


    3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    Power is given to the two witnesses, that they should prophesy, for 3 1/2 years. Could this be said of any of the representative beliefs given above, or does it point to two literal men.


    4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    In Zechariah 3 and 4, we see two literal men.

    Why would we not see two literal men here?


    Zechariah 4:14

    King James Version (KJV)

    14Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.


    In Zechariah we see similar terminology, and the two olive trees are two anointed ones, which I believe to be the kingly and priestly roles in Israel, In Zechariah, we see two literal men in these roles.

    So why would we not see two literal men in Revelation?


    5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


    Will those that dwell upon the earth be able to hurt "offices?"

    Will the Offices, or if we view this to mean the Old and the New TEstaments, or Covenants even...do that described here? Apart from literal men standing, even as representatives of the concept given?

    6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


    While we do see these powers ascribed to Old Testament prophets, have we seen them accomplished by the Church? And if we say that this happens at this time, will their still not be a need for someone to represent the Church?


    7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    What can this death refer to? How will the beast kill something that is not literal? Will he in fact kill the "two anointed ones?"



    8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    Will the two anointed ones, if they are only representative of any of the ideas presented other than two literal men...actually be killed?


    Do these two anointed ones only prophecy for 3 1/2 years, if they are interpreted to be something other than two literal men?

    Is this a new concept presented in scripture, or can we see a correlation to Zechariah? And therefore conclude that the two anointed one have been around longer than the 3 1/2 years these two representatives are given?

    It is reasonable, in my view, to see this as speaking of something other than two literal men, and I do. However, I also believe it is reasonable to see, according to the description of events, that two literal men will stand in these roles in literal bodies.


    Revelation 11

    8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

    10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

    11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


    While this can be spiritualized, and the two witnesses made something other than two literal men, my view holds that they are literal men standing as representatives of God and most probably the offices of King and Priest. But if they be not men, they will:

    1-not have bodies which die, for whatever concept one sees this as representative, it is doubtful that they will "die," those those holding the offices do.

    2-not be "left in the street for three days and an half."


    3-not be called prophets.

    4-have no need for bodily resurrection.

    5-not be spoken to from heaven and called up.


    I probably would not, at least not all points, but isn't that how discussion of doctrine works? I learn your views, you learn mine, and we discuss them.

    Not just dispensationalists.

    So far the best debate has been from Progressive Dispensationalists, in my view. Of course, the primary issue is whether the catching away is pre or post-trib. Love that dicussion.

    Continued due to length...
     
  15. Darrell C

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    Why does their opinion not matter?

    This says you will not discuss, argue, debate...whatever, that you will merely submit what you feel is a superior understanding, and you do not care if anyone else agrees with you.

    In something that is this important, when and how Christ returns, is not worthy of seeking to persuade men...what is the point?

    It is true that God has promised a kingdom for Israel, fulfilled in part in the conquest of Canaan, but yet not fulfilled according to the promises of God in full.

    Israel was right to place their faith in God and believe that what He had promised, He would do. The Law, the First Covenant did not make void God's promises, and it did not fulfill them. Israel has been blinded, but one day, that veil will be removed, and Israel's restoration will coincide with fulfillment of her judgment.

    The Tribulation will lead her to belief and repentance. Those that do not repent...will die.

    It is true that there are those that view only the teaching of Paul as valid instruction of the Church. Scripture, all of it, was given to mankind, and those that avail themselves of what it teaches will be called the people of God.

    But we also have to distinguish within prophecy and promise of God what will be fulfilled, and what will not. And as far as I can see...there is no prophecy or promise of God that will go unfulfilled.



    This is in answer to this:

    All I can say is that this makes it an impossibility that Christ returns...before the judgments you affirm here have run their course. While God's kingdom is said to come prior to these judgments ending, we can see that it is not until all of these judgments unfold and come upon the earth that He does in fact...return.

    Not only that, we can see in the Tribulation events the very things which we see in Matthew 24 and related texts, all working together with the prophecy of Daniel. To make these descriptive of a general battle between good and evil denies the necessity that prophecy, which is always fulfilled, be fulfilled in this last time, the last days...of this age.

    While this is a great conversation, one thing that is necessary for good conversation and discussion is that both parties present the biblical basis for their views, rather than saying, "This is what it means, and I don't care if you believe it or not."

    When we speak to others about Christ, we are to be ready to give an answer for the hope within us, and of a certainty questions will arise. As we discuss our views, we constantly examine the basis of our own beliefs, and that is just good for us, because unless we think we have all the answers, or are flawless in our doctrine and application, or assume that we have somehow learned all that scripture has to teach us concerning both doctrine and application, then we will do well to examine ourselves, and our doctrine.

    God bless.
     
  16. Darrell C

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    Not to split hairs, but I would have to disagree with that.

    I would affirm that Paul, in the first century...taught the pre-trib rapture.

    God bless.
     
  17. beameup

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    It seems that early on Paul's Epistles seem to have been ignored or marginalized. Sad really, because it has led to so much error.

    According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation. - 1 Cor 3:10

    The Holy Spirit is talking to you Gentiles... are you listening???
    I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles. - Rom 11:13
     
  18. percho

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    I believe the two witnesses (men) will be resurrected at the same moment as the verses above which is at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the last trump.

    2 Cor 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present with you.
    1 Cor 15:24 Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    The you in 2C4:14 are those alive. The dead and alive are presented to God the Father as the kingdom of God.

    I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it. (her) Matt16:18 Through death the soul enters Hades and the corruptible sees corruption.

    1C15:25,26 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
    It is death and the corruption of Hades that does not prevail against his church.

    Just as Jesus Christ by firstfruits of resurrection became the firstborn from the dead, the church also will be born from the dead into the kingdom of God. She will then be in his image and he will be the firstborn of many brethren so born.

    Jesus Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. This is speaking of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ from Hades and corruption. Acts2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the (birth) pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. A birth without birth pains no more to return to corruption. Acts13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    The church/B] Isa66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Shall a nation (the kingdom of God) be born at once? for as soon as Zion (the church) travailed, she brought forth her children.

    This is also seen in Psalms 139:15,16 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Jesus Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them. The church/kingdom

    I will build my church. How? Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; When? Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. He became the head of the corner by being the firstborn from the dead, the beginning of the church he would build. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. Receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father and then given to the church. Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. By which we will also be raised from the dead. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 2C4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus.

    Then and only then will we be born again to sin no more.
     
  19. Darrell C

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    It did not take long at all for false teachers to show up seeking to infiltrate the Curch.

    Even Peter was susceptiple to it's influence, as evidenced by the epistle to the Galatians.

    How much more do we, now nearly 2000 years later, strive to rightly divide the word...and enjoy some discussion about it along the way...lol.

    God bless.
     
  20. Darrell C

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    Hello Percho, just something to consider:


    Their resurrection takes place within the Second Woe, the Seventh Trumpet judgment being the Third Woe, making it an impossibility that the resurrection of the two witnesses is the same resurrection as that described in Revelation 20, though it be called the "First" resurrection.

    Also to consider is that the Third Woe unleashes the seven Vial judgments, leaving us to conclude that the Tribulation period is still ongoing.

    I have talked with those that because of the similarities between the judgments, see the Vial judgments as actually describing the previous judgments, though an examination of the judgments themselves reveal differences that cannot be denied.

    God bless.
     
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