Revelations 18 - Did we 'miss' an end-time sign on 9-11?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by SpiritualMadMan, Jun 26, 2004.

  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the past I have heard some end-time prophecy speakers talk of New York City being the Modern End-Time Babylon...

    Considering that the UN is headquartered in New York City. And, Re-reading the details of Rev 18 after the fact...

    What think ye?
     
  2. aefting

    aefting
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    874
    Likes Received:
    0
    Revelation 18 hasn't happened, yet. And when it does, it will be much more severe than what we saw on 9-11. 9-11 was terrible but New York City was hardly laid waste.

    Andy
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    I agree - Rev 18 has not happened yet. The loud cry message that starts Rev 18 and is a repeat of the message in Rev 14 - and the fall of Babylon - has not happened.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think we're going to know when it's the end times because Jesus said no one would know. I think that whenever people think it is, that's a sure sign that it isn't the end. It will be when people least expect it.

    People spend so much time speculating and doing headline prophecy -- all that time could be spent better on other things, imo. There have been many predictions and all have been wrong and will continue to be because no man knows.
     
  5. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Why not let the Bible speak for itself? Babylon was 1st century Jerusalem.

    Babylon is called the "great city".

    Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?

    The Lord was crucified in the "great city":

    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    Where was Christ crucified?

    Babylon killed the prophets and the saints:

    Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

    Jesus and Paul tell us who killed the prophets and saints:

    I Thess 2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
    15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

    Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Babylon was a Harlot:

    Rev 17:5 and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    Ez 6:9 And those of you that escape shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captive, how that I have been broken with their lewd heart, which hath departed from me, and with they eyes, which play the harlot after their idols: and they shall loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations .

    Ez 16:15 But thou didst trust in thy beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy whoredoms on every one that passed by; his it was.
    16 And thou didst take of thy garments, and madest for thee high places decked with divers colors, and playedst the harlot upon them: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

    Jeremiah 3

    1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, will he return unto her again? will not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith Jehovah......
    7 And I said after she had done all these things, She will return unto me; but she returned not: and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
    8 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery , I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot. 9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom , that the land was polluted, and she committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

    Babylon was Old Covenant Jerusalem. The scripture interprets itself if we come without our pre-suppositions.

    Matt 24:32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
    33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

    Those other things should include Bible study. More of Jesus, Paul, and John, and less of LaHaye, Lindsey, and Van Impe.
     
  6. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    No. 9-11 was not a sign of the end times. It was the result of a genocidal and hyperextremist madman.

    We need to spend less time speculating about the second coming, and more time understanding the first coming.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    #1. The Jews did not kill "all that had been slain upon the earth".

    #2. Peter writing TO Jews from Rome - identifies Babylon as Rome in 1Peter 5:13 (See NIV study Bible notes).

    #3. The "City sybmolically called Soddom and Egypt" in Rev 11 - where the OT and the NT (The "two witnesses") are destroyed - AFTER a 1260 year period of persecution - and where for 3.5 years they remain silent - points to a country that contend against the Bible 1260 years after the time of John. A city who like Egypt would say "who is God that I should worship Him". A city (nation) who like Soddom would be morally corrupt. A city (nation) who for 3.5 years would banish Christinity, banish the Bible (Rev 11:3-10) and would celebrate the event as a holiday - a day for sending gifts. (And is Not identified as Babylon but rather Soddom and Egypt) ... France in the late 1700's and early 1800's - the French revolution.

    But I realize there is one group that has a "strong vested interest" in not identifying Babylon with the Roman empire and "what followed".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Jude

    Jude
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    0
    Col. Potter would call it 'hooh-hah'. I would too.
     
  9. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Didn't mean to stir the pot quite that much! :D

    I can see various attributes of what has been shared...

    Lest we forget ther Original Babylon still exists.. In Iraq.

    Question, is The Revelation "Time Linear" or "Time Interleaved" or 'cluttured' with "Parenthetical Clauses" or some combination...

    Personally I still see a chilling, if incomplete, parrallel between New York City and Rev 18...

    Especially with all the Psychic Guilds, UN, and Watchtower Tract & Bible Society all based there...

    Maybe not a match... But, intersting nontheless...
     
  10. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    Grasshopper:

    Nowhere in the bible is Jerusalem called Babylon!

    You are mixing scripture for your own convenience.

    9-11 was probably NOT anything more than a wakeup call for America.

    Unless God is put back in schools, abortion is stopped, and gay marriages stopped, we will see a lot worse than 9-11. It's a sign of the times, and the time is short. :eek:

    Working for Jesus,

    Tam
     
  11. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    1.Where was the Lord slain?

    2. Nowhere in scripture is Rome, New York City, the UN called Babylon. So your position MUST be that it is Babylon of Iraq.

    3. Let me give you a hint. Revelation is full of symbolism.
     
  12. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    There is more than one city called the great city today. As in the great city of New Yorn, the great city of Boston, the great city of Houston etc.

    Don't you think there was more than one "great city" in the bible??

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  13. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    great city of New York
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Jesus disagrees with you:

    Matt 23: 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem , that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

    Does Rome fit the verse? Will they kill everyone upon the earth? Explain this phrase to me in your view of Babylon.

    Here is John Gill’s commentary on this verse:

    Revelation 18:24
    And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
    &c.] Such as before mentioned, in (Revelation 18:20) this is another reason of her destruction, besides her luxury and idolatry, namely, her shedding the blood of the saints, with which she is said to be drunk, and therefore blood is now given her to drink, (Revelation 17:6) (16:6) for she will now be found guilty of slaying the witnesses, who are meant by the prophets and saints, that have been from the beginning of the apostasy:
    and of all that were slain upon the earth:
    not only of those that have been slain in the city of Rome, but of all those that have been slain throughout the empire; they being slain by her order, or with her consent, and she conniving at it, encouraging it, and therefore will be justly chargeable with it all; see (Matthew 23:31,32,35) the Ethiopic version adds, "for the name of Christ".

    I don't get my theology from study notes. Scofield did enough damage with his. But since you want to use them, here are a few:


    John Gill

    1 Peter 5:13
    The church that is at Babylon…
    The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions, supply the word "church", as we do. Some, by "Babylon", understand Rome, which is so called, in a figurative sense, in the book of the Revelations: this is an ancient opinion; so Papias understood it, as F5 Eusebius relates; but that Peter was at Rome, when he wrote this epistle, cannot be proved, nor any reason be given why the proper name of the place should be concealed, and a figurative one expressed. It is best therefore to understand it literally, of Babylon in Assyria, the metropolis of the dispersion of the Jews, and the centre of it, to whom the apostle wrote; and where, as the minister of the circumcision, he may be thought to reside, here being a number of persons converted and formed into a Gospel church state, whereby was fulfilled the prophecy in (Psalms 87:4) perhaps this church might consist chiefly of Jews, which might be the reason of the apostle's being here, since there were great numbers which continued here, from the time of the captivity, who returned not with Ezra; and these are said by the Jews F6 to be of the purest blood: many of the Jewish doctors lived here; they had three famous universities in this country, and here their Talmud was written, called from hence F7 Babylonian. The church in this place is said to be

    James Burton Coffman's Commentaries: New Testament

    Babylon--The Chaldean Babylon on the Euphrates. ON THE PLACE OF WRITING this Epistle, in proof that Rome is not meant as Papists assert; compare LIGHTFOOT sermon. How unlikely that in a friendly salutation the enigmatical title of Rome given in prophecy (John, Revelation 17:5), should be used! Babylon was the center from which the Asiatic dispersion whom Peter addresses was derived. PHILO [The Embassy to Gaius, 36] and JOSEPHUS [Antiquities, 15.2. 2 23.12] inform us that Babylon contained a great many Jews in the apostolic age (whereas those at Rome were comparatively few, about eight thousand [JOSEPHUS, Antiquities, 17.11]); so it would naturally be visited by the apostle of the circumcision. It was the headquarters of those whom he had so successfully addressed on Pentecost, Acts 2:9, Jewish "Parthians . . . dwellers in Mesopotamia" (the Parthians were then masters of Mesopotamian Babylon); these he ministered to in person. His other hearers, the Jewish "dwellers in Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia," he now ministers to by letter. The earliest distinct authority for Peter's martyrdom at Rome is DIONYSIUS, bishop of Corinth, in the latter half of the second century. The desirableness of representing Peter and Paul, the two leading apostles, as together founding the Church of the metropolis, seems to have originated the tradition. CLEMENT OF ROME [First Epistle to the Corinthians, 4.5], often quoted for, is really against it. He mentions Paul and Peter together, but makes it as a distinguishing circumstance of Paul, that he preached both in the East and West, implying that Peter never was in the West. In 2 Peter 1:14, he says, "I must shortly put off this tabernacle," implying his martyrdom was near, yet he makes no allusion to Rome, or any intention of his visiting it.


    People's New Testament
    This work was written in 1891 for the novice student. It contains aids to help understand every verse

    Babylon. See remarks in /com/pnt/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=008#" Alford says, "There is no reason whatever for regarding this any place but the Chaldean capital.

    I don't think France would fit the context of Rev 1:1,3

    Revelation 1

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
    2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
    3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand .

    But at least you won't accuse me of not taking Revelation literally since obviously you don't either.

    Not me.
     
  15. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    What cities are called today is irrellevant. The Bible was written to 1st century peoples. The question is what would they consider the "great city".

    No. Can you find me one?
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    No text in all of scripture says "The Lord was slain in Babylon" or "Babylon the city where the Lord was slain".

    But you keep coming back to this as if scripture said that.

    No scripture said BAbylon was Jerusalem.

    Peter claims it is Rome - as we already saw.

    And Rev 11 does not say the Lord was slain in Babylon.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    BobRyan,

    Would you please develope the thought that 'proofs' Rome is babylon...

    You said Peter claimed it was Rome... Please elaborate...

    Thanks
     
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city ?

    The Lord was crucified in the "great city ":

    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city , which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    No he doesn't. Your NIV study notes say it. Where does Paul say "Rome is Babylon"?

    And as you have already seen, there are other scholars that would disagree with that assumption.

    Now, care to answer the other questions posed to you?
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Peter is writing from Rome and states "She who is IN Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings" 1Peter 5:13.

    So clearly - this is Rome. (Unless you have proof that the letter of 1 Peter was written from Jerusalem - you are pretty much stuck on this one.)

    The Romans killed Christ - and this remains the connection between the death of Christ and Babylon.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    No mention of Rome being Babylon. Hint: Study notes are not insipred nor considered to be part of the original text.

    Proof? What "proof" have you given other than study notes? OK if study notes are to be used I will use them also.(again)

    John Gill

    1 Peter 5:13
    The church that is at Babylon…
    The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions, supply the word "church", as we do. Some, by "Babylon", understand Rome, which is so called, in a figurative sense, in the book of the Revelations: this is an ancient opinion; so Papias understood it, as F5 Eusebius relates; but that Peter was at Rome, when he wrote this epistle, cannot be proved, nor any reason be given why the proper name of the place should be concealed, and a figurative one expressed. It is best therefore to understand it literally, of Babylon in Assyria, the metropolis of the dispersion of the Jews, and the centre of it, to whom the apostle wrote; and where, as the minister of the circumcision, he may be thought to reside, here being a number of persons converted and formed into a Gospel church state, whereby was fulfilled the prophecy in (Psalms 87:4) perhaps this church might consist chiefly of Jews, which might be the reason of the apostle's being here, since there were great numbers which continued here, from the time of the captivity, who returned not with Ezra; and these are said by the Jews F6 to be of the purest blood: many of the Jewish doctors lived here; they had three famous universities in this country, and here their Talmud was written, called from hence F7 Babylonian.

    There, I proved it. If study notes are the final say then there seems to be a disagreement. I won't list the others again. Feel free to read them from an earlier post.

    Very good. You said: "and this remains the connection between the death of Christ and Babylon."

    So what does the scripture say?

    Who tried numerous times to kill Jesus?

    John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.
    59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple

    John 10:31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.

    John 11:8 The disciples say unto him, Rabbi, the Jews were but now seeking to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
    .....53 So from that day forth they took counsel that they might put him to death.


    Who do the inspired writers say killed Jesus?

    I Thess 2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
    15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us ,and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel , hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken , and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Even the guilty Jews acknowledge they killed Jesus:

    37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


    Once again the New Testament writers answer the questions for us. Unless you disagree with Paul and Luke?
     

Share This Page

Loading...