Rick Warren - Guilt by Proxy

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by papagiorgio200, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. papagiorgio200

    papagiorgio200
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    This may be a bit unorthodox (tongue-in-cheek), but I would like to get some input, feedback, and debate on the topic of Rick Warren. I would be curious to see, if, after catching up on some information about him you may not have known you have any red-flags or new thoughts on him. So, I ask you to read my post in its entirety, I have included a bit about Oprah in it because this post was heavily geared towards my church I recently left (I and my family attended for almost 12-years... my kids will have life-long relationships with many from growing up in the youth group) due to this growing influx of emergent mysticism. I have heard that through a few small groups through friends that as they are starting out in Rick's book about love there is talk amongst a few about the positive nature of Oprah and the miracles of healing wrought by this positive feeling. So I apologize about having to wade through Oprah crap.

    Here is my post:

    I would say enjoy, but, I am looking for comments (both critical of my post and affirming). Thanks guys and gals, Papa Giorgio. I look forward to lively discussion.

    (By the way, if you are a pastor and would like to know how a 12-year member and 13% tither would leave a church, I posted about the last straw at this LINK)
     
  2. dcorbett

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    I was sick reading this stuff about Blanchard. I have long believed that Warren is a spawn of the devil, and now I know it.
     
  3. papagiorgio200

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    .

    Thanks DCorbett... now that you know it, devil be warned should be your "battle cry." I have left my church (an Evangelical non-denominational church) and my family and I are going to Grace Baptist. I have always said (half-jokingly, now more seriously) that I am a Baptis except in dress and drink. God Bless you and yours.

    .
     
  4. SolaSaint

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    I left a SBC church several years ago manly due to the church taking the 40 day programs too far. At the time I didn't feel Warren was that far away from conservative Christianity. I did a little research and found some of the same connections that you have, like Blanchard and Sweet. I also found his early beginnings with Schullar, but even after all this I never read any quotes by Warren that branded him a heretic. So I do agree by proxy his is guilty of some bad associations. I haven't read much on Warren lately and am wondering if he has gone further down the postmodern New Age path? I read the 12 questions you presented in your article about the books your pastor at NP gave to you:

    1. that the first three miracles in John were inserted by writers to “woo in pagans,” as they are themselves adopted from pagan stories (so John lied to save souls... the "greater good" thing, or, the church at a later date corrupted Scripture in order to save souls, so which parts of Scripture are not corrupted?);
    2. the Virgin Birth was also a deep seated fear of sexuality and not really a miracle;
    3. books that teach that penal substitution as a vile doctrine;
    4. that Hell is not a place for persons to be placed after a future judgment, and that Hell is actually here now and that we must bring in God’s Kingdom (separate from that future judgment);
    5. these books say we do not have the Gospel right yet;
    6. they teach that traveling to Buddhist temples and practicing meditative techniques in these temples is Christian;
    7. they show that many of the practices rejected by the Reformers are in fact useful to the Christian;
    8. they show that Yoga can make one closer to God and to realize and experience the “divine;”
    9. they teach that the doctrines of the Trinity, nature of Christ, nature of Scripture, and the nature of marriage are “still on the table,” doctrinally;
    10. teach that Paul was really communicating Platonism and not bringing us Scripture;
    11. altered states of consciousness gained through "centering prayers" brings you closer to God;
    12. I could go on...


    My question is, has Warren publicly promoted any of these or is he still just propping up these false teachers and speaking differently in the pulpit?

    There are many solid apologists who defend Warren like Richard Abanes and Hank Hannagraf, so I'm very confused about this man.
     
  5. papagiorgio200

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    Two Questions Asked and Hopefully Answered

    .

    A couple things. I was asked to clarify a where I use "conservative evangelical" in the opening of my post at my site. Fair question, because most consider this type of movement the liberal theology similar in tome to that which J. Gresham Machen referenced in his book Christianity and Liberalism. Mark Driscoll considers this movement from which he "emerged" to be very liberal as well. In fact, I encapsulated the "conservative evangelical" for a couple of reasons. The first being that the pastor in which I built that list from the books he passed on to me defended Tony Jones as a conservative theologian. Remember that Tony has said the following, which is an image of his post on this topic:


    [​IMG]

    After mentioning that Tony had said these things, this pastor mentioned that he was acquaintances with Tony and that he knows that he is a conservative theologian. So this was mention in " " to make sure that those who know the back story of me leaving my church that are still at the church can click that this is not conservative. That's number one. Secondly, many of the leaders in intellectual thinking are and have been considered "conservative." And indeed you can almost agree... heck, I love J.P. Moreland! His book, Scaling the Secular City, is a must for any skeptic or apologist. However, he advocates this meditation as we see here in this excerpt from David Cloud's book, Contemplative Mysticism: A Powerful Ecumenical Bond -- and please keep in mind that in the terminology of the emergents, solitude and silence have different meanings that when we think of Jesus going off to achieve solitude. You almost need that "cult" glossary that Walter Martin speaks of:

    (pp. 316-317)

    Dallas Willard and others whom we have viewed as conservative, should now be considered "conservative." Ray Yungen in his book, A Time of Departing: How Ancient Mystical Practices are Uniting Christians with the World's Religions, talks about David Jeremiah:

    (p. 187)

    Yes, thee David Jeremiah that wrote Invasion of Other Gods, a great book on the early influence of New Age on the church. A couple of years ago Francis Beckwith, while President of the Evangelical Theological Society, stepped down to be reconvert to Roman Catholicism. While I wrote about this in a more positive way on June 11, 2007 (yes, Dr. Beckwith found the time to stop by and comment on my meager post)... I wouldn't have been so nice now. In fact, I am looking forward to reading his book (when I have the time) Return to Rome: Confessions of an Evangelical Catholic for clues that I am only within the past year-and-a-half coming to grips with. I bet he, the leader of conservatism in theology, left after some time practicing this "centering prayer"/"contemplative prayer."

    Roger Oakland aptly points out in his book, Faith Undone: The Emerging Church... a New Reformation or an End-Time Deception, that,

    (p. 81)

    This movement has reached far and threatens to undermine a large portion of the "church universal" if not discussed at the donut and coffee bar at our churches. We need to be able to equip ourselves with what is coming on the horizon, before its too late.

    I hope I answered the questions asked of me in the PM and of SolaSaint... although I doubt it eased any troubled feelings about such great men compromising on the written word. I wish to quickly note here that this movement found its strength in the writings and movement of neoorthodoxy/open-theology. It is the "parents," if you will, of this newer younger movement.

    G
     
    #5 papagiorgio200, Feb 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2010
  6. papagiorgio200

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  7. dcorbett

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    AMEN!! And being Baptist means believing the Bible as it is, not adding or taking away from it, not changing it to suit your needs, but serving God as He commands! The dress and drink changes come with Bible study and prayer as you grow in your walk, by the way. It took me a while, but I am walking more upright everyday....a ways to go yet, but I am a work in progress. :thumbsup:
     
  8. papagiorgio200

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    A Good Beer or Glass of Wine

    Ha, ha, here we go. I will always go to church with my Dickies Shorts, t-shirt, and Vans, no matter what church I attend. Here my spread between "classical" Baptist and an H. Wayne House type of Baptist becomes apparent. I am a member of more than one winery. My wife and I love to travel up the road a bit to get away from the kids and work to Santa Ynez and stay a night or two and tour a few wineries and their tasting rooms. A bit further up the road is Paso Robles. Both these place are close by and absolutely gorgeous and offer the best in California wine.

    I also, being a seminarian, love this quote:

    “Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women? The sun, the moon, and the stars have been worshiped. Shall we then pluck them out of the sky? …see how much he [God] has been able to accomplish through me, though I did no more than pray and preach. The Word did it all. Had I wished I might have started a conflagration at Worms. But while I sat still and drank beer with Philip and Amsdorf, God dealt the papacy a mighty blow.” (Martin Luther, quoted in: Drinking with Calvin and Luther – A History of Alcohol in the Church, by Jim West) ​

    Know, however, that if I were ever to become a pastor, I would gladly stop in order to remove one argument or stumble for another that may crop up in their lives.

    :saint:
     
  9. Amy.G

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    I would like to abolish some women! :laugh:
     
  10. AnotherBaptist

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    Thanks for confirming in this thread what I have always said:

    Schuller begat Warren
    Warren begat McClaren
    McClaren begat Bell, Paget, etc...

    Schuller is the grandfather of the Emergents. Warren is the father.
     
  11. webdog

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    Oh brother...
     
  12. webdog

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    You are aware the P.E.A.C.E. plan is not theology based, don't? You act like Warren is allowing these people to preach to his congregation.
     
  13. Rippon

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    I know you meant it figuratively, but Warren is just two years older than Brian.
     
  14. Rippon

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    By the way, I visited a KJVO church Sunday night. The Pastor is very "conservative". He has met Rick Warren. He considers him a brother in the Lord,despite some obvious differences he has with him.
     
  15. Tom Bryant

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    Then it is obvious that he has been taken in by this spawn of Satan. :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3:
     
  16. dcorbett

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    And your comment is why??? Warren is so fake I can hardly stand to watch him talk.
     
  17. papagiorgio200

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    Mis-post... I apologize for the inconvenience.

    Mis-post... I apologize for the inconvenience.
     
    #17 papagiorgio200, Feb 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2010
  18. papagiorgio200

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    From the Horses Mouth

    Noted. I posted a straight excerpt for you that may be a bit more forceful for you, since it comes straight from Rick's Purpose Driven Life and he is again "damned" because of his "guilt by proxy."

     
  19. SolaSaint

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    What is truly worrisome is that thousands of pastors across America regurgitate Warren's doctrines in pulpits to millions of unsuspecting Christians every Sunday. I believe the genuine Christian will be able to spot the scripture twisting and contemplative meditation, but the new Christians and the unconverted will most likely be taken in by this false teaching.
     

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