Rick Warren on the condition of man...

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Daniel David, Nov 15, 2002.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    This is taken from his website. Is there anything in it you disagree with?

    Man is made in the spiritual image of God, to be like Him in character. He is the supreme object of God´s creation. Although man has tremendous potential for good, he is marred by an attitude of disobedience toward God called sin. This attitude separates man from God.
     
  2. Molly

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    I just posted that on the lengthy thread,glad you started another thread on this! :D

    I believe scripture teaches the total,TOTAL depravity of man,left to our own,we will do no good. I see biblical error here.

    [ November 15, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]
     
  3. Daniel David

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    So Molly, what exactly are you saying?

    a) he distorts the gospel
    b) he probably gives a distorted presentation of the gospel
    c) all those convert numbers are suspect
    d) he probably has unbiblical methods
    e) he doesn't understand salvation
    f) all of the above
     
  4. Molly

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    Well,when you miss the first button on your shirt,all the other ones are off,too...when fundamentals of God's Holy word are misrepresented or taught wrongly,we have a church way off from biblical mandates.

    F)all of the above.
     
  5. All about Grace

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    Did someone accuse me of nitpicking?????

    1) As I have stated earlier, Saddleback's website is not intended to be a doctrinal statement of beliefs spelling out what Rick Warren believes about the level of depravity within humans. So don't try and turn it into that. It is primarily a practical tool for their members. For goodness sake, I am amused by the extent you guys/gals are going to attempt to discredit Warren.

    I am getting to that point I am going to stop posting simply because you ignore and ignore points I raise and continue to search for ways to support your own presuppositions.

    2) Let's go ahead and get one thing out in the open: Rick Warren is not a 5-point Calvinist. Do not expect him to make TULIP-colored statements. That does not make him or his methods illegitimate. I am far more "Reformed-minded" (whatever that means) in my theological positions than Warren. I do not expect him to sound like a Calvinist. He is not one. Guess what? Doesn't make him any less spiritual or God-centered than John Calvin himself (or the extreme views of his followers).

    3) Molly you see biblical error here because you are searching for biblical "error." If John Piper made this statement, you would have no problem with it. Let me ask you, with what part do you disagree? Does this statement reflect in any way that a human can come to God outside of His grace? Call it total depravity or call it a sinful nature, the bottom line is no one is coming outside of God's intervening grace. How that grace intervenes is a point of contention throughout church history. I don't think you are going to solve it by simply suggesting Warren's statement is a biblical error. Show us how it is a biblical error.

    And while you are at it, can you answer my previous post regarding the "high" view of God.

    Bottom line: Humans are sinners and unless their sins are forgiven by the sacrifice of Calvary, they are going to Hell. There is a hamartology that is foundational to all systems of belief.
     
  6. All about Grace

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    Are you omniscient? I am just wondering. You must be since you can gather all of this information about Warren's theology based upon a blurb from their website. Need I remind us again of the site's purpose.

    I am appalled by the accusations you are making in the name of "correctness." Honestly I should expect no less. It is the same "I am absolutely right and no one else is" attitude I have argued against for too many hours. :mad:

    Please, please release your books so I can know exactly what position to take on every theological and methodological position. Until then, I will simply be wandering in the world of ignorance.
    :rolleyes:
    PUKE!!!
     
  7. Molly

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    To plainly say this,I believe when God made man,it was great then sin entered the wordl through one man,Adam,now we are all depraved sinful,whatever you want to call it. Their doctrinal statement,if it is called that,says man has potential to be good. What scripture is that based on.

    Their website is great and very entertaining,it clearly shows their focus,though. You said he preached through Romans,I couldn't find any info on expository preaching and that as a *draw* to their church. Wonder why? Because maybe it doesn't draw people,it doesn't work. The pragmatic thinking again.

    SBC,
    This really should not upset you so much. I'm just looking for biblical evidence that this is okay for a church. I haven't seen any yet....Like,I have said before,I disagree with the philosophy that makes God's word secondary.

    [ November 15, 2002, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]
     
  8. Daniel David

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    Are you sure it is that high? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  9. All about Grace

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    You prove your presuppostions here. The statement says the potential for good is marred by disobedience to God. Our potentiality only comes to fruition in Jesus Christ--a point he articulates clearly in PDL.

    Nice try. Simply shows your faulty assumptions.

    I lied. He did not go verse-by-verse through Romans for 2 1/2 years. :rolleyes:

    Maybe expository people does not "draw" people to the church because it is language 90% of believers don't understand. Since when is it necessary for me to advertise I am doing expository preaching? Isn't that the very marketing techniques you are arguing against? I get it now. You only disagree with the type marketing Warren is doing because you have the defnitive answer for what is right and wrong.

    I am not upset.

    I have been looking for evidence from the first page of posts.

    I disagree with a mindset that misrepresents people and believes it has a monopoly on every avenue of ministry.
     
  10. All about Grace

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    Still don't want to deal with the facts huh preach?
     
  11. Daniel David

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    SBC, this is an examination of a specific point.

    As far as the others go, I am waiting to hear back from Warren.
     
  12. JIMNSC

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    Somewhere in the south a young 24 year old man and a lady were just making some fundamental observations of a man working in the yard across the street. This man, let’s call him Rick, had already painted the trim on his house, pruned his shrubbery, and was cutting his grass; all before 10 in the morning.

    Shortly, a stream of visitors began stopping by just to complement Rick on how spiffy he had everything looking. The admirers spoke loud enough so that the observant couple across the street could hear them. Now the observant couple had not even begun their chores for the day, [​IMG] and did not complement their neighbor on how well his property looked as the others did.

    One of them turned to the other and said, “He must be on dope to have that kind of energy!” The other agreed and added, "if he's not on dope, he's certainly suspect" - finding fault rather than looking for any good in his labors.

    By the way, they didn't like the color paint he picked, claimed he pruned the shrubs at the wrong time of year, but couldn't get quite close enough to examine the length of the grass to comment on it, so they reluctantly agreed it may be okay. :D

    This is not a true story but it is parabolic (even though it contains a name!). Can you find yourself in it?? ;)
     
  13. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    2 Thessalonians 3:6
    But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

    1 Timothy 6:3
    If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness...

    2 Corinthians 6:17
    Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you."

    1 Timothy 4:1
    Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith

    2 Timothy 4:3-4
    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

    Jim and SBC, what you don't get is that it is not a preference issue. If you cannot discern this guys statement regarding the condition of man, then the discussion is meaningless regarding methods.

    I do not reject Warrenism because it is popular or because I personally don't like it. It would be easier to sit back and not say anything. Do you think I enjoy confrontation? I disagree and reject it and him because I believe he has compromised the gospel.

    SBC, you wanted a quote. You got a quote. Don't try to argue from history as though it is a meaningless issue. Show me in the N.T. anywhere that man has the potential to do good. Since your PH.D is in NT, this should be relatively easy. If you can't do it, then by all means stop defending this guy. Good grief.
     
  14. Siegfried

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    Eat your heart out, brothers Grimm.

    [ November 15, 2002, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
     
  15. Don

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    Somewhere in the south a young 24 year old man and a lady were just making some fundamental observations of a man working in the yard across the street. This man, let’s call him Rick, had already painted the trim on his house, pruned his shrubbery, and was cutting his grass; all before 10 in the morning.

    Shortly, a stream of visitors began stopping by just to complement Rick on how spiffy he had everything looking. The admirers spoke loud enough so that the observant couple across the street could hear them.

    Now the observant couple had not even begun their chores for the day, and did not complement their neighbor on how well his property looked as the others did--because they knew full well, even though their neighbor's visitors did not, that the neighbor had just painted the house the week before, in an attempt to elicit the same response. In fact, it was an every weekend event: the neighbor would paint his house some new color, and beam with pride when visitors would stop by to compliment it.

    Not saying this is why Warren does what he does; I've read the book, and I think I understand his motivations. Doesn't mean I agree with his methods.

    The house didn't need new paint, did it?

    Wouldn't it be fantastic if we did as the Old Testament preachers did? Walk into the town square, unroll the scroll, read it to the crowd, roll it back up, and go home? Expecting that the Word of God is all that we need?
     
  16. C.S. Murphy

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    Regardless of one's opinion of Rick Warren ( I have none) there must be a stop to this ad-hom behaviour. More than one person is guilty on this thread thus far, as I see it. I urge each poster to examine your posts and edit the unkindess out. If not done soon I will do it. Also be advised that I will scrutinize any additional posts, so let's play nice shall we.
    Murph

    [ November 16, 2002, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
  17. Molly

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    Don,you are absolutely right...the house did not need new paint,did it? The church of today does not need a makeover,it does NEED new music,it does not NEED more community center activities,it does not NEED a more relelvant preacher that tell Reader's Digest kind of sermons because people can not understand biblical words,what we do need is more of God's word permeating our lives,more men who can accurately teach and proclaim Christ,more true worship from the heart,more of the Bible,not less,more of the God Most High,and less of lowly man,more of His holiness,and less of me! The church should be naturally appealing to those who do love God and His word,we should not need to entice and attract....My point in a nutshell!

    Proclaim the gospel,preach the whole cousel of God,do not allow man who want their ears tickled to dictate what church is to be,the real believers will come! [​IMG]

    [ November 16, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]
     
  18. C.S. Murphy

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  19. Molly

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    I'm sorry to offend anyone. In what ways are you okay with attracting and enticing? The things I am talking about are in relation to the gospel and His word. I have no problem with being nice and friendly(people of God should be),or making the building nice,clean, and appropriate. I think these things are fine and I am not referring to anything like this. I am referring to changes made in the teaching,style,or activities to entice the lost...to make church more appealing through emphasis put on those things,and lowering the emphasis of the Word.
     
  20. Don

    Don
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    "I see in your church convention that you discussed the subject 'How to Get People to Attend Church.' I have never heard a single address at a farmers' convention on how to get the cattle to come to the rack. We spend our time discussing the best kind of feed." --The Baptist Outlook
     

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