Rick Warren & "Resisters", Those Believers Who Refuse To Change

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by IveyLeaguer, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
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    For some two years now I've been expressing my belief that the 'true church' is going to be persecuted by the 'professing church', which consists primarily of liberal denominations, Catholics, and movements like Seeker, Purpose-Driven, the Emerging Church, the New Apostolic Reformation, Dominionists and a few others.

    As the professing church progresses in its "falling away", as foretold in the Scriptures, and becomes more unified as the lines blur and as it places more weight on the occultic, apostate foundation from which it will stand, we see more and more examples of its arrogance - even downright contempt and hatred - for those "resisters" who refuse to go along with the majority, that is to say, for those who choose to remain loyal to Jesus Christ and faithfully balanced in His Word by refusing to compromise it for the lure of humanistic pleasures and worldly success, all in the name of reaching the lost and fulfilling the Great Commission.

    This article is about one of Rick Warren's latest quotes that's been reverberating around the discernment community for several weeks now. It's nothing new, just a little less camouflaged than usual. As I've said many times, one of Warren's patterns has been that the more success he has, the less concerned he is about packaging and the bolder he becomes. Indeed, we may not be far away from the day when he sheds the evangelical sheepskin altogether, as he's already taken it off several times temporarily for selective audiences.

    When you consider that many thousands of pastors are following this man, including Baptist pastors, this becomes
    SCARY STUFF.

    :Fish:
     
  2. J. Jump

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    Wow...wouldn't that be remarkable that the Bible would actually be true. As you say we can see this already today. The "professing church" as you call it is just like the Pharisees and Saducees of the NT times and they don't even see it.

    It cracks me up when people talk about persecution, because they always speak of it in a sense that it will come from unsaved individuals and other religions, but a great bit of the persecution in the NT, especially to most of the apostles and Christ was at the hands of saved individuals.
     
  3. 2BHizown

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    Totally agree! Its like following the Pied Piper off into disaster though none of them see what is happening! So many pastors are following this same pattern, leaning the congregations off into shallow easy believism forumlas that have no scriptural basis! Seems we've entered what Amos termed the 'famine of the word' where motivational talks are the order of the day and self interest and self satisfaction reigns supreme! God have mercy!! People need to get into the bible deeply and see what God has to say to them, to know Him and not the professors who desire to keep them happy and make them feel good about themselves!!
     
  4. rlvaughn

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    IveyLeaguer, could you post the quote for us who don't know what it was? Thanks.
     
  5. webdog

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    I would hardly lump purpose driven into the category of "professing church". This just shows ignorance about Rick Warren's ministry.
     
  6. IveyLeaguer

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    I agree it does, but it isn't mine.

    :Fish:
     
  7. webdog

    webdog
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    Opinions vary...
     
  8. JamieinNH

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    Oh look mom... ANOTHER Rick Warren thread....


    /ignore



    Jamie

     
  9. IveyLeaguer

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    Sure. Warren is talking about churches that don't grow (if they aren't growing, there must be something wrong, right?). And he implies that the reason must be old fashioned Christians who refuse to change and follow him. The quote is:

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

    The massive implications of that statement, as well as the theological problems, are many if you think about it. Remember when he talks about "resisters", to use his term, Warren is talking about born again, regenerate, loyal Believers - in other words, people like you and me, people like most of the people on this board, people who refuse to sign a 'covenant' pledging not to question what they are taught - people who, bottom line, had rather follow the Word of God than him.

    Warren loves to frame the issue as stiff old-timers or traditionalists vs. everyone else, when what it really is is Biblical Christianity vs. its cloaked Counterfeit.

    Here's the entire article from Warren's web site.

    :Fish:
    [/FONT]
     
  10. webdog

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    He doesn't imply that at all, this is what you read out of it. Cultures change. If you think it's sinful to change along with culture, go back to wearing a robe and sandals as were worn in the very first church.
    The saying "ignorance is bliss" doesn't apply when slandering a fellow believer's ministry. It's obvious you have a vandetta against RW, as do many "resisters". Warren may call them resisters, I call them "legalists". Not once EVER has he said to follow him, or listen to him rather than the Word of God, or to sign a "covenant" to not question what they are taught. This is a flat out lie. Like I said prior...spoken from ignorance.
     
    #10 webdog, Jun 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2006
  11. blackbird

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    The thing we need to remind ourselves is this

    There's been "Purpose Driven" ideas and movements long before Rick Warren was in diapers---there was Purpose Driven in the '50's, 60's, & 70's(long before Warren was even old enough to shave!!!)

    When Warren's fad passes away and when Warren is laying down in a fixed horizontal position permanitely---the idea will take off from somebody else who'll rise up from "Store Front to Mega Church"---the guy will write a book and it'll take off like a F-18 Hornet from the flight deck of the Kitty Hawk!!!! and folks will follow the new kid on the block and 100 years from now will be askin'----"Rick Warren??? Who in Sam Hill is he????"

    Blackbird
     
  12. IveyLeaguer

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    Really? Goodness, it's right there in his own pen, what do you think he's talking about? Besides, Warren has been very clear by his own words and actions what he means by resistance to his purpose-driven program and method for several years now, this is nothing new. Different models of the same thing have been and are being used in Seeker and Emergent churches. Voluminous research has been done on this, check it out if you really want the truth.
    That's the usual category mistake. This is NOT about clothes, music, atmosphere, or other superficial cultural factors. Those type things only distract from the real issue. This is about Biblical vs. non-Biblical Christianity, and Biblical Christianity doesn't change or modify its message or ways to conform to or please the current culture. In fact, it commands us NOT to do it (Rom 12:2 and many others). Current culture is the way of the world, and the Bible makes that distinction from Genesis to Revelation.
    Well, slander is a very serious thing, indeed, but I don't have that problem. I simply take what Warren and others like him do and teach, apply that to the Word of God, discern the error, if any, and warn others about it as I am called to do. That is my ministry (which you have slandered, BTW - but I understand and was never offended :) ).
    I have no personal feelings or vendetta against Rick Warren or Brian McLaren or anybody else who is leading people astray. But if opposing and exposing apostate Christianity for the purpose of warning others is what you call a 'vendetta', then I guess I have one. But the terms most people use are words like 'discernment', and 'watch'.

    Well that's the first time I've ever been called a legalist. I hate legalism almost as much as the counterfeit gospel. Perhaps you should ask some of your friends on the board about me - or better yet, go back and read some of my old posts - any of them.

    FWIW, most of the people who leave their churches when Purpose-Driven is invited to take it over do so for Biblical reasons. Sometimes they are forced out, and even in a few cases, publicly evicted. But few of them are legalists, as the PDL spin would have us believe. Some are, but most are just regular, dedicated believers who know the Bible. Rick Warren also refers to them as "unhealthy" and describes them with terms like "growth-restricting disease".

    LOL. What do you expect him to do, say "follow me, not Jesus"? In the very example above, he says that these believers most likely "love God sincerely", they just won't change. Won't change to WHAT? If they are real Christians THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN CHANGED, by God Himself! And if they are sharp enough to discern the subtleties of the purpose-driven movement chances are they have been TRANSFORMED, to a meaningful degree, by the Word of God (also Rom 12:2).

    I heard John MacArthur say recently that Purpose-Driven is THE test of discernment in the world today, and having studied it non-stop for almost four years now, I would agree. As for the 'covenant' thing, I was using it for emphasis as it is not critical to the real problem, but at Saddleback (and no doubt some other churches) a person MUST sign a "Membership Covenant" before they can join which says, among other things, that they MUST agree to protect the unity of the church by "following its leaders". Think about that for a while.

    Boy, I often wish it were. As I was telling someone the other day ... sometimes, digging into this stuff, you just stop and say to yourself, 'you know, this is good (or that is not so bad), what could be so bad about this'? Then, after few moments, the hard, cold, reality sets in. God is Who He is, the Bible is what it is, and the facts about Purpose-Driven and other movements are what they are.

    The comforting thing is to know God is sovereign, has foretold us ahead of time what was going to happen, and has warned us in advance to watch for it. I sincerely hope you and others will investigate the facts for yourself.

    :Fish:
     
  13. npetreley

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    Thanks for the heads-up. It is scary.

    As I have said on here before, I volunteered to teach a Bible study group based on the purpose driven life. What I ended up doing was spending most of my time correcting Rick Warren's errors. By the time the Bible study ended, I volunteered to teach a couple more classes to offset the damage. This led to a falling out between me and the church, and I left.

    I'm so glad some other people can see just how lethal this garbage is.

     
  14. webdog

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    It's NOT there...its' what you want it to say. Have you ever heard him speak or even read any of his books?
    Exactly. I would like you to list what is not biblical about the five purposes, with Scripture, please.
    Again, if there is so much error thay you have discerned from the Bible, it should be no problem listing Scripture that states RW's five purposes are not biblical, instead of personal opinions.
    That's what you accused him of saying.
    Legalistic views...pants on women are sin, drinking alcohol is sin, not wearing ties to church is sin, you get the picture.
    Strawman argument, as this is NOT the change RW is talking about.
    Yes, because John Macarthur is the authority to judge RW on... :rolleyes:
    Are you insinutating an anarchist approach to church leadership? You don't believe God has appointed leaders in a church to...get this...LEAD? The "membership covenant" is a personal covenant signed by a member who WANTS to join the church. For the great autonomous arguments I hear here on the BB, autonomy applies at Saddleback as well. I would rather have the leadership of the church govern the church, as congregationally ran churches are not the biblical model (see Acts). To bash RW for what he does at his church, when other pastors do similar things within their four walls is foolish.
    Assumption only, not fact. The only ones I would see this applying to are reformers who HATE the fact that all men were created for a purpose (and it's not destruction as is falsely taught).
    And what is that? You have yet to post a verse that disproves anything.
    After the bashing of RW here on the BB, I have investigated it for myself, even reading the book and listening to RW preach. I have yet to see anything that would categorize his ministry as apostacy. This usually comes from the KJVO's and reformers.
     
  15. webdog

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    ...were you pointing out his errors as they pertain to calvinism, or errors as they pertain to the Bible, because biblically its' accurate. A reformer cannot support the PDL, as it goes against everything calvinism teaches. You are the perfect example of what ivyleaguer was talking about in regards to who leaves the church.
     
  16. 2BHizown

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    You're right that it goes against everything Calvinism teaches! Thank the Lord for that! 'Calvinism' is another word for scriptural truth! PDL is another word for fluff! Calvinism is solely God centered! PDL is totally man-centered, feel good, do good, be nice to people but totally lacking in strong theology of scripture! The whole problem is that it doesnt get to the heart of the matter which is "SIN" and man's need for a Savior. It never addresses God's wrath and without being cognizant of God's wrath there is no awareness of a need for 'mercy'! In being aware of our need for mercy in coming to God in faith we can see the totaly awesomeness of a high and holy God and as we see our life being changed we fall in humility before Him with great gratitude that He has saved us by His mercy from the wrath to come!
    Today so many are being led by false teachers who are preaching a social gospel and those listening are never made aware of their great sinfulness and/or need to repent!
    Its truly an 'easy-believism' and sadly does not bring people to true faith in Christ according to scripture!
     
  17. webdog

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    Another reformer chimes in with inaccurate information. That makes three already. Any others?

    At least 2bhizown has told me something that I always had suspected. Reformers believe calvinism = Scripture. And you have the gall to call PDL man centered? :laugh:
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    #18 pinoybaptist, Jun 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2006
  19. webdog

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    All you have to do is read this thread, and the hundreds like it that bash fellow believers.
     
  20. thjplgvp

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    see my poll

    Thank you for this OP. Please consider my poll "Which three do not belong on the list" in the polls section.

    thjplgvp
     

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