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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Mar 22, 2003.
Why is it impossible for God to lie?
Well, I'm not sure how deep you want to go into this, but, for one thing, God is truth. If He speaks it, it will be true. Just as He spoke the world into being, so everything He speaks comes to pass.
Well, that's my two cents (three cents Canadian)....
God cannot lie because God is totally righteous.
Does that mean God does not have free will?
If God does not have free will, and one of the main arguments of non-Calvinists is that we are made in God's image and since God has free will we have free will in his image.
But what happens to that idea if God does not have free will because God cannot lie.
Holy theological quandary, Batman!
"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbeleif make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged...For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just? Rom. 3.3-8 (leaving off the printing of vss. 5 & 6 but reading and knowing they are the Word of God.)
I was going to answer in accordance with Russell55's post, again, Abraham: "...Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"
[edited to correct spelling]
God chooses not to lie. He could very well have set things into motion where it would have been possible for him to do such a thing. As the creator of all things, and the One who set into motion all things, He also created a moral system whereby He does not lie.
I disagree. If God had never created, He still would, or rather is, God. All His actions are governed by His nature.
You nailed it, Brother Dallas.
It is unfortunate that in order to defend their scheme, Arminians must nibble away at the nature of God.
[ March 22, 2003, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]
The Bible says it is impossible for God to lie. It is not merely a choice that he makes. And he did not create a moral system. The moral system is a reflection of who he is. It is impossible for God to sin because of his nature as God.
I think Ken is right that the end of the arminian position is a nibblign at the nature of God.
Wouldn't you say that God's nature is self-defined?
And would you also agree that God created Truth and that which is not Truth?
Oddly enough, I am not nibbling at the nature of God at all. I am attributing to Him the sovereignty he deserves. Not only did He create the universe, but He created the moral framework which governs the universe.
Oddly enough, I am not nibbling at the nature of God at all. I am attributing to Him the sovereignty he deserves. Not only did He create the universe, but He created the moral framework which governs the universe. </font>[/QUOTE]So that it is this 'moral framework' that holds the sovereignty and not God.
No. Truth is eternal. It comes from God.
So now sovereignty is the ability to choose to be self-contradictory?? That doesn't seem sensible to me. He did create in a sense, the moral framework ... but we must understand the morality that underlies the moral framework is eternal. Proverbs 8 describes this in the personification of wisdom, which is an eternal attribute of God and by which the world was created.
To suggest that God can lie if he chose to is to say that God can be something he is not. If he is something he is not, then he is not God. In terms of apologetics, I think you run into some real difficulties here.
On the contrary, it is God who has the sovereignty. Even over morality.
So, do you believe if God said that committing adultery is moral, it would be moral?
So since you agree that GOd's nature is self-defined, then we can by extension agree that God defines himself as completely Truthful. And this is my point. God does not lie because He chooses not to lie.
No. Truth is eternal. It comes from God.</font>[/QUOTE]So you are placing Truth as an equal to God? How can something come from GOd and not be created by Him? We're dealing with more than semantics, I think.
Of course not. God declared His sovereignty when he created the moral framework that humanity must live by. That is what I said, and I stand by it.
And now you are equivocating morality with God. You are saying that the two are equal - WOuld you not say that God transcends morality by his very character? You did admit that God created the moral framework, and as such, are beginning to understand and agree with me.
Read verse 22. Wisdom was among the first of his works. This stands in conjunction with eternity. Can we not conclude that wisdom was also created from the very beginning by God? If this is true, and it would seem that it is, then we can come to the conclusion that God created a system in which Who He is is Truth and Who He is not is not Truth. It is because of this framework that God cannot lie. It would be contradictory to the framework He created. Thus, God made the choice from the beginning not to lie.
Again, God cannot lie. He chose to set the moral framework into motion from eternity past. He cannot lie and thus break His own rules. I am not suggesting that God can lie if he chooses to. Thta choice was already made.
So, do you believe if God said that committing adultery is moral, it would be moral? </font>[/QUOTE]Think about that question carefully. It's about as loaded a question as you can have.
But as God is the creator of morality and the absolute Truth, if God said that X is moral, then X must be moral.
Likewise, if God says that X is immoral, then X must be immoral.
God's eternal attributes are as eternal as God is. I don't think that eternal God arbitrarily decided that adultery is moral rather than immoral. That would make morality subjective instead of objective.
Who God is doesn't change.
But that doesn't answer the question of God's creating a moral framework.
How would you answer your own question?