Righteousness and natural man

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by dwmoeller1, Feb 26, 2007.

  1. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    Can an unregenerate man, of his own energy of will and volition, do anything which would be accounted by God as 'righteous' or even 'good'? Please support either way.
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    Luk 8:13They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
     
  3. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    So was that a yes or no?
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    I believe they can "hear" the word and respond by believing.

    You cannot worship God with a carnal mind, only in spirit and in truth.
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Feb 26, 2007
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  5. whatever

    whatever
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    No, for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
     
  6. donnA

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    Isaiah 64:6But we are all as an unclean thing , and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
     
  7. GordonSlocum

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    12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    You know what - What? Some of these lost, dying, sinners Isaiah speaks of believed freely and were saved.

    How about that. Isn't that amazing that man can respond to the light and be saved even though he is so deiscribed by Isaiah and Paul.

    Whosoever believes in Him

    The Bible View is Correct
    John Calvins Wrong
    Jacob Arminius Wrong
     
    #7 GordonSlocum, Feb 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2007
  8. Rippon

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    You nonCals are something else GS . Go to verse 13: Children born not of natural descent , nor of human decision or of a husband's will , but born of God . ( TNIV )
     
  9. donnA

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    I'm sorry I think your answering the wrong question. The question was if the unregenerate could do anything that is would be considered by God as righteous, any works good enough. The fact that you have varied from the op's topic leaves me confused on your meaning.
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    Luk 8:13They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    Seems they all "hear".
     
  11. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Nothing good in me

    There is nothing good in me, that is in my flesh.

    God is not trying to reach the flesh, for it is a body of death.

    He is reaching the inner man telling it that only Jesus can save them from the body of death.

    God does not incline our heart to believe, He gives us a clear choice to believe in His Son and be saved or not and be coindemned.

    We are not saved by the will of man or thier choice, but by the will of God and His choice to save believer in His Son.
     
  12. MB

    MB
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    Since we aren't saved by our righteousness or even by our faith. What's the point of your question?
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Since Grace is through faith then how can you explain that man is able to have grace with out faith? Can you explain it?
    MB
     
  13. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Our will

    If it was by our own will or choice, we could go through buddy and be saved.
     
  14. Allan

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    I would like to know: (though I think in your question the operative is "do")

    Do you mean good at all (a basic sort of righteousness though tainted in sin)

    or a salvic or meritous good regarding eternal value?


    If the first, then yes scritpure supports men of their own doing good - like:

    our RIGHTEOUSNESS is like filthy rags... men can do right or good but it is of not salvic good since we are depraved in our sin.

    Even Jesus stated:
    Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

    Here are two examples but there are others.
    Is this not doing good of their own? Though AGAIN their 'doing' is of no meritorious or salvic value.

    Yet these are ACTS of basic righteousness or good and have no eternal value or merit of or in themselves but THEY DO SHOW man CAN make a decision toward a good thing if set before them.

    However, man can not OF or BY himself DO (acts of) any meritorious or salvic good regarding its intrisic eternal value because man is in sin (seperated from God - true good).
    Yet in that same contention man CAN CHOOSE that which is good and that which is life when that truth is set before him by God, who of Himself establishes its salvic and meritorious good from all eternity. It is man resposibility to believe in Gods truth/work set before him. ...for he the cometh to God must believer that He is...whosoever's...as many as recieved Him...believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be... if any man will enter in... and so forth.
    Is it any clearer in scripture as to why God says to believe and that only that which is wrought in faith is acceptable to God. God does not change a person so that they are bound to no other choice but to believe because the command TO believe would be absolutely unnessesary because man would so automatically even if God never ask men TO beleive. Yet scripture is FULL of God calling men to choose between Truth and Lie, obedience and disobedience, rebellion and submission.
     
    #14 Allan, Feb 27, 2007
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  15. dwmoeller1

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    Whats the difference? Or maybe the better question is: Can righteousness be righteousness if it is tainted by sin?

    Is this internal or external righteousness he is speaking of? If internal, then why is it like filthy rags? IOW, is it at all pleasing to God?
     
  16. Allan

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    You asked can man do... I showed you where scripture states man can in a limited and non-salvic way.

    How can an evil (vile and destable) man do much less give good gifts that can be equatable to God giving good gifts? Yet Jesus uses their being able to give good as an example toward God and His giving of a much greater good (more eternal in value)

    Would me buying a child an icecream cone because he dropped his, be a good thing done.
    Would me obeying God, be a good thing done.
    Now obviously they are different types of good, so does one disqualify the other as being good. No they are both good but one is greater than another and therefore the value different. A limited analogy but suffient for my means.

    Did the scriptures misrepresent the truth concerning OUR righteousness being liken to filthy or used rags?
     
    #16 Allan, Feb 27, 2007
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  17. donnA

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    The difference being, we can do good deeds according to the world's standards, but these have no eternal value, they are filthy rags to God. Good, righteous deeds with eteranl value can only be done through the indwelling Holy SPirit. Otherwise man could gain a right to heaven by do good deeds, as any good deed would be righteousness.
     
  18. Allan

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    I would say "by the empowering' personally but I agree.
     
  19. skypair

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    Interesting to compare that phrase here "receive the word with joy" with the parable of the sower, Mt 13:20 regarding the seed fallen on stony places. They "received the word anon with joy" and, presumably, were saved -- on the rock -- as well.

    skypair
     
  20. MB

    MB
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    Hi dwmoeller;
    There is nothing in the natural man that pleases God except the seed. It pleased God to plant it with in man. The seed being God's word is a work of God not of man. Salvation is a work of God not of man. Faith is a work of God not of man.
    First God has chosen man then He plants His seed. The Holy Spirit working with the seed produces faith with in the man. The only thing man does is listen and there isn't one scripture to support the theory that man has been disabled by the fall of Adam so that he can't hear.

    Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    It isn't a work of man at all, it's the work of God. Does listening to the word please God. I suppose it does but even this listening is the work of God but, the man must be willing to listen to it. With out God there would have been no seed tpo listen to to begin with. Not everyone will listen to it. However if the man does listen the word will produce a believing faith, but man's faith will not save man. His faith isn't righteous enough to save. The faith of man takes man to the grace needed to have the righteous faith in which we are saved.
    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Once we have access then can the faith of Jesus Christ save us.

    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    The whole process is all of God from conviction to convincing of the truth of the gospel. Man's faith is the product of the work of God not of man. Yet man must be willing. God doesn't kidknapp people against there willingness to accept Him. Man's will is only to accept it as truth or reject it. Faith is not a work.
    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    This proves that believing is not a work for man.
    MB
     
    #20 MB, Mar 1, 2007
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