Righteousness without the Law is Revealed !

Let me speak your language for my question.

It is true only Jesus can save you and there is nothing you can do of your own accord to be saved. I believe this is generally accepted. However, once you are saved is it encumbant upon you to please the God who saved you? Is it wrong to try to want to please him by doing those things he wanted you to do?

 

Righteousness is imputed to them because they are not righteous by nature and thus it must be obtained outside of themselves. However, they have no need for sin to be imputed to them because they are sinners by nature even as others - Rom. 3:23; Eph. 2:2-3 "for ALL HAVE sinned...."

They are LEGALLY condemned by the Law or else they could not be LEGALLY called "sinners" nor could they suffer the LEGAL consequences of sin which is "death" - Rom. 6:23.

When you attempt to make the eternal purpose of God reality you repudiate the very eternal purpose of God which is INCLUSIVE of application in time and space without which there is no eternal purpose as presented in the scriptures.

According to God's eternal purpose they are already glorified in God's design but THAT IS NOT REALITY and won't be reality until they are glorified in time and space as that IS inclusive of God's eternal purpose.

Your soteriology is like the archetech saying his blue print for a house is the house already built. The human archetech may have a blue print for a house and yet the house never be built because impotence in the human archetech. However, God's blue print can be spoken of as good as built BECAUSE there is no impotence in the Divine Archetech to implement his blue print (Isa. 46:9-11; Rom. 8:28-30). However, that does not mean the blueprint is the house in either scenario.

 

This what you need to demonstrate, so you cannot simply assume it. In my post, I provided an argument as to why mere reference to law - with no definite article and no explicit reference to Moses - can still be a reference to the Law of Moses.

The overall point being - Paul can and does use the term "law" - nomos - to denote the Law of Moses in particular.

Not a valid argument. The fact that Paul uses the definite article in one case (when he refers to the law of Moses) is simply not grounds to conclude that he must always use the definite article to refer to the Law of Moses. Language is not that simple.

 

You missed the whole point! You have God justifying the elect before the foundation of the world and thus the same time you say sin was not imputed to them.

Why do they need either when they have not yet sinned at all because they have not yet been born on planet earth??????? Since when do the righteous need justification and when do the righteous need sin NOT imputed to them????????

Your soteriology is an absolute oxymoronic mess.



There is absolutely no need to justify someone who has no sin

 

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No, if they already had imputed righteousness and non-imputation of sin before the world began there would be no need for Christ to come at all and die for their sins because all they had was non-imputation of sin and why would Christ die for something never imputed to them - sin? There never were any sins to be paid for according to your eternal rationale.

How can you improve upon a people already existent before the world began who have non-imputed sin and imputed righteousness already? What could Christ ever do in time and space to improve upon that eternal condition??? Why would Christ even have to die for them? They are already righteous according to you. They are already without imputation of sin according to you? What and How could God improve upon such a condition already obtained?

Since according to you, even after they are born into this world they never come under condemnation for sin and so for whose sins would Christ be condemned to death for?

 

I have not been stating my position at all. I have just been showing the absurdity of your position.

You have the elect already existent and already completely saved before the world began not merely in God's Purpose but in reality. From that absurd position I simply question why bring into existence any other reality? How can God improve upon that eternal state of the elect? Why should Christ even create a world, come into the world and be condemned since you claim the elect were already justified and NEVER UNDER CONDEMNATION at any time. If that is true, then for whom does Christ suffer condemnation on the cross????? You cannot say for the elect because you have them already justified, without imputation of sin before the world began not merely by design or God's purpose but in reality.

 

"until they do something"??? How about until God does something as no man "cometh to me except the Father draw him" as "this is the work of God that ye believe...." (Jn. 6:29,44) so it must be "given unto him of the Father" (Jn. 6:65).

However, you jerked my statement out of context. Just as we are elected in Christ before the world began so is Christ predestinated to make provision for the elect before the world began and both work out in time and space as God predetermined. So both are according to God's eternal purpose and both come to fruition in time and space.

What I have been rejecting and objecting to is your notion that such a REALITY already existed before the world began. If one aspect of God's purpose ALREADY EXISTED IN REALITY before the world began than EVERY ASPECT of God's purpose already existed in reality before the world began.

If we were actually and really already justfied before the world began then we were actualy and really already glorified as well, and thus Christ already suffered and died before the world began.

The truth is NONE of God's eternal purpose was a REALITY before the world began but only His DESIGN that He predestinated to be realized as a REALITY in time and space. Hence. we were born UNDER SIN and thus UNDER CONDEMNATION and thus not justified as far as REALITY and thus Christ had not suffered and died before the world began but only predestinated to do so and therefore He had to actually come and die and suffer condemnation for THE CONDEMNED! One is no more a reality before the world began than the other. If the Christ provision has to be actualized in time and space it is because it was not actualized before the world began. The same is true with every other aspect of God's eternal PURPOSE - thus all had to be actualized in time and space because it was not actualized before the world began.

If you have one aspect already actual and completed before the world began (e.g. actually justified, actually non-imputation of sin, actually imputed righteousness) then the Christ provision was already actual and completed before the world began along with every other aspect of God's eternal purpose.

You cannot select one aspect of God's Purpose and make it reality before the world began without making every aspect of God's Purpose a reality before the world began. If one aspect is not a reality before the world began than NONE of it is a reality before the world began. None of it was and that is proven in one word - "predestinated" the whole eternal purpose of God was predestinated to become reality not that it was already reality.

You treat imputed righteousness, non-imputed sin, as already existent reality before the world began and that is the basis for your argument that when the elect actually came into the world they were without condemnation ALREADY - bogus baloney!!!! True, they were that way by Divine PURPOSE but they were not that way in reality - they were born "condemned" under sin and thus subject to death.

 

So, are "all persons" reconciled? Just wondering, for of late you have been arguing for universalism.

 

What then sets one group of persons apart from another group if as you contend, Christ reconciled all (and as you have argued, "all" means all)?

 

Romans 8:28 identifies the eternal "purpose" of God "according to" which he works out all things purposed - Rom 8:29-30. Hence, he does ALL these things in time and space and therefore NONE of these things are done before the world began but only PURPOSED before the world began.

His provision for redemption was purposed before the world began but it was not done before the world began but had to be done in time and space.

We were glorified by Purpose before the world began but it was not done before the world began.

We were Justified by Purpose before the world began but it was not done before the world began - hence we were born condemned under sin when we came into this world and justification was done by God in time and space.

The Christ provision was by Purpose before the world began but it was not done before the world began. Christ had to actually enter into time and space and actually provide it through his life and death. What he provided was for the elect as the price paid - objective redemption of the elect.

The redemption provided by Christ FOR THE ELECT had to be applied individually to each elect so as to actually save them in time and space. The lamb was slain and offered up on the brazen altar but the blood had to be taken by the Preist and then applied to all the objects in the holy and holiest of holy (there objectively finished) and then return unto the people and bless them before redemption could be declared subjectively finished. So Christ's life and death and resurrection and ascension into the real throne (ark lid type) into heaven "obtained our redemption" by God accepting it as payment in full and from heaven it is being personally and individually applied to each elect according to God's appointed time after they are born into time and space. It's application by the Holy Spirit of God in time and space is seen in regeneration/justification and then in progressive sanctification and ultimately in glorification when He returns out of the holy of holiest in heaven to bless His people in the resurrection/rapture. This is all the work of God and all of grace.

Objectively the Purpose of God is as good as done - Rom. 8:28-30

Objectively the Purchase Price has been paid in full - Heb. 9:12

Subjectively the Personal Application is in progress - 1 Jn. 3:1-2

I have been saved according to God's Purpose before the world began - Rom.8:28-30 - all spoken of as past tense and complete.

I have been redeemed provisionally in time and space through the life, death, resurrection of Jesus Christ for the elect.

I am being redeemed subjectively in time and space according to the sanctification (setting apart) by the Holy Spirit first in regeneration/conversion/justification and then progressively redeeming the time (Eph. 5:17) and ultimately will be completely redeemed in my full person at glorification.

All that the Father has given to Christ shall come and no man can come to Christ except it were "given to him of the Father" or except he is drawn by the Father and all the Father draws shall be raised up to glorification in the last day (Jn. 6:37-40, 44-45; 64-65; Jn. 17:2).

What God did in and through Christ objectively redeems, reconciles and saves us.

What God does in and through us subjectively redeems, reconciles and saves us.