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Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by Salty, Mar 21, 2010.
Was Williams really a Baptist?
At lest I thought Dr Bob would answer, since they were good friends :smilewinkgrin:
The evidence that Roger Williams was a Baptist is fairly thin, and so is the evidence that he started the first Baptist church in America.
Are you trying to tell us that Dr Bob was not his Assistant pastor at First Bap in Providence?
No puns intended: It is not readily apparent who may have FOUNDED First, Second or Third whatever in Providence or Newport, Rhode Island, circa 1637-38, depends on who you read. Labels can be deceiving.
There was a New Testament style Church, numbering 37 souls, with baptistic faith and practice which landed near Plymouth Rock, on the Mayflower in 1620. They had Bibles and the Great Commission. Others followed.
Most of modern day Christendom was founded by a man or woman-- going back to Constantine the Great One, or even the author of all that which is pseudo, the angel of light-- fallen that is. Usurped authorization is no authorization at all.
Jesus started the only true assembly. She is still alive and well--His Bride, kept by Him in every generation. She has been assailed by the gates of hell.
Not all Baptist churches teach this to be sure. Basic cut: what is taught regarding Baptism and Communion? This will draw some serious lines in the sand. Then there is universalism.
God is not the author of confusion, nor a respecter of persons.
Interesting reply. To avoid being "off topic," I sent you a PM about a related matter.
Please check your PM inbox.
No, Dr. Bob was the Assistant pastor to John Clarke at FBC Newport, which I believe was the first Baptist congregation on American soil.
lol, of course the Reformed Baptists are gonna have a problem with Roger Williams.
He doesn't fit into nice, neat denominational categorization.
For what it's worth I'd suggest Williams was a Baptist long enough to start the first Baptist church in America.
Then he got all bothered by the politics of the church he started and left to go do missions with the Indians.
Interesting that the article finds a point of disagreement over Williams' use of the miraculous and sign gifts as a disqualifying mark of him being Baptist. Sort of plays that hand a little late. Not all Baptists of that era, or this, are cessationists.
To be sure, Williams is an enigma wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in mystery...
He is perhaps better described as what he was not than what he was, for he seemingly changed stripes several times during his tenure as pastor and missionary to Native Americans.
He is widely held as the founding pastor for the Baptist church in Providence in 1638. That his beliefs were not solidly Baptist (in the modern sense) but rather, "baptistic" is a given. We should realize that early in the history of the people called Baptist, there were multiple expressions of the doctrines of the faith that were being hashed out. There are still multiple strands of Baptists today -- an heritage left over from those earliest days -- and something that should be self-evident from discussions on this board.
For a fuller history, one should probably pursue some of the great texts written about this era of church history. The study will take several years to complete. Ask me how I know... :saint:
Williams was probably more influential as a politician than a preacher. His concept of the independence of church and state led to the 1st Amendment. Here is a document penned by Williams in that regard:
R. Williams is enigmatic only if one uses him as a example of baptistic faith and practice. Some of his practices were obviously not baptistic. Landmarkers, sit down and be still. But wait--there is evidence that one John Clarke, already referenced, may have preceded Williams by a year. John Clarke was surely a Baptist.
So what. There was a New Testament Church on the Mayflower-- The Gospel was preached in this land several years (circa 1620) before Clark or Williams(circa 1637-38).
Study The Book of Jude, especially vs. 3.
The real succession is "The Faith and The Practice which was once(for all) given unto the saints." They may have had different names on their signs--many were afraid for their lives--they put up no signs. Some were imprisoned, beaten and fined for preaching The Gospel in our land of religious freedom--interesting.