Role of Holy Spirit before Pentecost

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by koreahog2005, Oct 5, 2004.

  1. koreahog2005

    koreahog2005
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    I'm still learning about this. What do you guys and gals think? My impression is that although the Holy Spirit was active and at times empowered certain leaders (in terms of physical strength, prophecy, etc.) of His people prior to Jesus’ death and resurrection, He did not permanently empower all Christians with spiritual gifts until the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:8; 2:1-4). Other relevant passages are Numbers 11:29; Joel 2:28-32; John 7:39; 14:17; and 16:7. It is also my impression that the active work of the Holy Spirit was necessary in Old Testament days to counteract total depravity before a person could have faith whether our perspective comes from five-point Calvinism (regeneration), Arminianism (prevenient grace), or three-point Calvinism (special conviction). Let me know what you think.
     
  2. Ben W

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    I think that the Holy Spirit was the fourth figure in the furnace with Shadrach Meshach and Abednego, Daniel Ch 3.
     
  3. koreahog2005

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    Ben, that's the first time I have heard the fourth person in Daniel 3:25 interpreted as the Holy Spirit. I have heard others say that the person was an ordinary angel or preincarnate Jesus.
     
  4. billwald

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    Why do you think that his role has changed. Roll=job description?
     
  5. koreahog2005

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    I'm not sure His role has changed. Perhaps only His distribution of gifts has changed. His power (in terms of spiritual gifts) is now available to all of God's people. This availability to all seems to have been the prophecy of Joel 2:28-32 which was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost according to Acts 2:17. In Numbers 11:29 I get the impression that His power (in terms of the prophetic gift) was limited to certain leaders, but Moses wished it was available to all. Certainly, the Holy Spirit was needed to counteract the depravity of all people who had true saving faith both in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    The New Birth of John 3 worked the same in John 3 pre-cross as post-cross.

    The convicting, regenerating, creating power and function of God was the same pre and post-cross.

    Only "some" people had the gift of prophecy and miralces etc in the OT and this is also true in the NT.

    There was a flood of blessing and grace poured out in Act 2 at Pentecost - but that was not a weekly experience for the church and is no longer the experience of the church today due to its Rev 3 process of growing colder as time goes by.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. koreahog2005

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    Thanks, Bob. What do you folks think about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Is it somehow different now than it was before the day of Pentecost?
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    If one considers the Father as part of the Godhead, then the Spirit of God was also walking with Adam and Even in the Garden. As early as 2,948 years before Jesus' coming the Bible says that the Holy Spirit was ' . . . striving with human beings.' [Genesis 6:3]

    With the exception of the kings of Israel, the prophets, priests and some artisans who worked on the Temple, the laity were not indwelled by the Spirit of God. His influence was active on the lives of the people but never an indwelling or baptism into the Spirit when they first believed. That is why it was so easy for them to backslide as in the case where Moses went up into Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments.

    While Christ breathed on the disciples the Spirit on the evening of the resurrection, if I recall correctly, the remaining believers only received the Spirit of God on the day of Pentecost. In John 2:11 it says at the Marriage at Cana, that ' . . . His disciples believed on Him.'

    Blessings . . . .
     
  9. koreahog2005

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    Ray, I like your interpretation of John 20:22 (Christ breathing on some of His disciples as they received the Holy Spirit, while others received the Spirit at Pentecost). I haven't made up my mind yet about that verse. Some commentators think the breathing in John 20:22 was a foretaste or pledge of the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost. I think the fillings and empowerments of the Spirit were restricted to certain leaders in Old Testament times, as you said, but it seems that the Spirit would have had to act on the "common" folks to counteract their depravity so that they could surrender their lives in repentance and faith. If the Spirit did not in some way indwell them permanently after they surrendered their lives to God, then they would have quickly relapsed into depravity, and yet some remained faithful. This is certainly a tough issue. At this point, I can only say with confidence that "common" folks in Old Testament times were not empowered with spiritual gifts in the same way as all New Testament Christians have been since Pentecost.
     
  10. Ben W

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    The Holy Spirit is mentioned right at the start of Genesis. Gen 1:2 "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" Yet there is no mention of His form. I think that He is in the form to us as that of a Person in some way. it would be logical progression of thought then to assume that if He can be in the form of a person now, that He could then also?
     
  11. BobRyan

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    So no wisdom, faith, charity, teaching etc among the OT saints?

    I think not.

    Christ makes the point in John 3 that pre-cross it is "already fact" that they had to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

    Pre-cross - the saints could only be saint by means of the Holy Spirit and the New Birth.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    While Abraham had faith in the Lord, the Scripture never says that he or the other remnant of Israelites were indwelled by the Spirit of God. To prove this to us you are going to have to have a regiment of holy Scripture.

    That's why the Israelites had a proclivity toward backsliding; why? because they were not baptized into the third Person of the Trinity, as understood in N.T. theology.
     
  13. GeneMBridges

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    FYI, one of the best theology texts on the subject is Life in the Spirit by Thomas C. Oden. It is available from CBD. ( www.christianbook.com ) for a very reasonable price.
     
  14. koreahog2005

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    Ben, I think the Holy Spirit has always been a Person.

    Bob, I agree with you that some OT saints had certain gifts, like prophecy, but I don’t see the vast array of gifts in the OT that I see after Pentecost, and I don’t see them distributed to all believers in the OT like I see after Pentecost. I agree that the Holy Spirit was active in the salvation process with all elect people in the OT and the NT.

    Ray, I agree with you that there’s not much said about the Spirit being in believers in the OT. Nehemiah 9:20a says, “And Thou didst give Thy good Spirit to instruct them.” Also, check out Numbers 27:18: “So the LORD said to Moses, ‘Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.’ ”

    Gene, thanks for the book reference.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    I suppose for most of us, we learned as children, that the Law ruled the Old Covenant and the New Covenant came through Jesus Christ. [John 1:17]

    For example, Jeremiah 31:33-34 suggests that during the Kingdom Age we will know and understand the laws of God and that nearly everyone will know the Lord. This prophecy has not occurred to date. Also, in Ezekiel 39:29 suggests that during the 1,000 reign of Christ, He will ' . . . pour out His Spirit on the House of Israel, saith the Lord God.' And, of course, the Prophet Zechariah tells us in chapter fourteen that Jesus will reign over the world from Jerusalem. [vs.9 & 17] This future era of time is referred to seven times in just six verses in Revelation chapter twenty. What I am saying is be careful as you study the O.T. passages.

    My point is that the people of God under the O.T. made animal sacrifices and were devoted to the Lord through obeying the Law (the 10 Commandments) and all of the ordinances connected with the Law. Yes, they were in a covenant relationship to the Lord, but the laity were not baptized into the Spirit, like from Pentecost and forward. As before mentioned there were O.T. exceptions, like the prophets, priests and kings of Israel.

    As I already said twice, that prophets were indwelled by the Holy Spirit. This fact is shown in Numbers 27:18.

    As to Nehemiah 9:20, the verse does not say that God the Spirit indwelled all covenant people. The Word of truth, however, does say that, God gave His Spirit to instruct their minds. It may be a fine point, but the Lord can both enlighten or illumine the sinner or saint without indwelling their hearts/lives.

    The International Version says, 'You gave your good Spirit to instruct them . . . ' Surely you would agree that sinners can read John 3:16 and the Holy Spirit can work through their mind as God illuminates their understanding as to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, without baptizing them into the Holy Spirit.

    The Light of the world Jesus does say that He 'lights every person coming into the world.' [John 1:9] Sinners being created after the image of God sure helps their lost situation. [James 3:9]
     
  16. BobRyan

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    If the Romans 3 concept of total depravity is correct - and the John 12:32 concept of God's drawing all mankind to himself is correct (as the one and only way of countering that sinful nature and TD problem) - then the only way to get "giants of faith" in the OT as we see in Heb 11 - fully accepted, justified (even taken to heaven in some cases) is to have the ONE Gospel fully active in both.

    Only by means of the Holy Spirit as we see in Psalms 51:9-11 working exactly then as we see Him work today IN the life of the saint.

    The "one gospel" preached to US just as it was to them also Heb 4:1-2 because in fact it worked the same way. One problem -- sin. One solution - the Gospel.

    Without it the total depraved are NOT the giants of faith of Heb 11 and Abraham is NOT the father of the faithful as in Romans 4 - rather they all remain "totally depraved".

    Without that ONE Gospel you can not have the John 3 work of the Holy Spirit bringing the new birth pre-cross. All you have it totally depraved sinful mankind - remaining totally depraved.

    It is only the work of the Holy Spirit that brings about the Romans 2 circumcision of the heart. (According to Paul)

    Only the Holy Spirit produces the 2Cor 5 "new creation" so necessary to achieve the "Good tree" of Matt 7 and the Giants of Heb 11.

    Indeed in the OT God says explicitly that "HE put His Holy Spirit IN them".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Me2

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    the Spirit operated by influencing human beings from without the OT saint. they had an unclean carnal spirit and spirit body. it was impossible to completely clean the spirit, spirit body and mind.

    Only by the substitution of mans old spirit and old spirit body with that of the righteous spirit and righteous spirit body could one be resurrected from spiritual death.

    this wasnt available to be distributed until Christ proved the righteousness of his "works". through the life, death and resurrection was he able to produce an acceptable propitiation.

    In the OT Saints were being conditioned through promises made by God to allow these saints "to enter" into heaven at the second resurrection. they will continue to grow through sanctification in the next age.
    as the Elect in this age. today the NT ELECT receive a resurrected spirit and resurrected spirit body and are in the processes of renewing their minds.
    the NT Elect are being prepared "to inherit" the kingdom of God. to be fathers to the many growing children, teachers to the many learning students, who are only able to enter in the kingdom.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    No where in all of scripture does the Bible say that the saints are those "with corrupt carnal spirits devoid of the new birth or the Spirit of God - without Christ IN THEM the HOPE of Glory".

    This "other gospel" that would suggest such a non-biblical saint ever existed - is without support from the Word of God.

    It is simply a mistake.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    Being 'born again' or from above is strictly a N.T. phenomenon. [John 3:3] Unless I have a big gap in my theology you will never read of any O.T. saint being born again, which, of course, partly suggests that the believer is baptized into the Spirit of God. [I Corin-thians 12:13]

    Some covenant Bible instructors wrongfully suggest that the church was in existence under Old Testament times. The church {ekkleseia} means called out ones. The former covenant believers were called of God, but the Lord carefully never calls them His church. Yes, they were the people of God or God's people but never did the prophets use the term of the church.

    As I mentioned before that is why the Israelites backslid so easily and quickly because they did not have the Comforter-the Holy Spirit [John 14:16] to guide their lives in the paths of right living.

    Generally speaking the Holy Spirit did not indwell the people of God until after Jesus' ascension into Heaven. After He returned to Heaven He came to His people on the Day of Pentecost and He continues to come to sinners by way of indwelling at the time of their believing and trusting in Christ as Savior.

    For the misguided who believe in a one covenant theory, please turn to Hebrews 8:6. Since the Cross we live under ' . . . a better covenant' because this one ' . . . was established on better promises.'

    Before Jesus' Transfiguration and His death on the Cross, promised Peter and the other disciples that He was going build His church in the future. In Jesus' own words He said, 'And on this Rock {Christ} is will {future tense} build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.'
    :rolleyes:
     
  20. Me2

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    Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

    1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

    Paul wrote to romans, galatians and corinthians of the carnal nature of those found in the churches called to be saints.

    as today. God calls both the vessels or wrath and vessels of mercy.
    the elect and the non elect as the visible church.
    within these masses will you find the true invisible church. the true called out elect.

    all are placed "in the spirit" of God. they are called by God.
    the same can be said of carnal christians and the OT saints. yet both havent received the reality of eternal life.

    because both are not "indwelt by the resurrected spirit".

    ONLY the NT Elect are indwelt by the Spirit.

    Only the elect have the profession of the indwelling spirit within their flesh.

    The OT saints were preparing the emergence of a better covenant. the one in which would combine man and the spirit of God. Both from without and from within.


    1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    both christ spirit and antichrist spirit is in the church today. their here at this board...

    no OT "saint" understood that God wanted to indwell their bodies.
    this reality wasnt available towards them.
    they never received the reality of the indwelling spirit within their bodies.

    the OT saints were promised to "receive a kingdom". in other words the OT saints and the non elect are promised to be citizens of heaven, yet the elect "inherit" heaven.

    try understanding "seeing afar off" as well as "entering heaven" and "inheriting heaven".

    Me2
     

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