Role of Holy Spirit before Pentecost

Me2,

I agree with most of your post, but sure hope that no writer on the board has the 'spirit of antichrist' in their lives. While there is a lot of theological error, I sure hope no one has the above named 'spirit.' Only the unsaved and worst sinners have the 'spirit of antichrist.' All sinners are alienated from Almighty God and are children of the wicked one. [I John 4:3]

 

Ray,

everyone sitting in the pews today that have been convicted by God of sin in their lives possess the christ spirit, or the antichrist spirit.

It is God using the law to place us INTO THE SPIRIT..yet we must ALSO replace our carnal "antichrist spirit" with CHRISTS resurrected spirit.

if we are called of God to be a vessel of wrath. the antichrist spirit within us will tell us error and we will accept it as our reality.

if we are called of God to be a vessel of mercy. the spirit within us will tell us truth and we will accept it as our reality.

we know that few in numbers are called to be the elect (christ), yet many are called to be antichrist. "many called, few chosen"

mankind doesnt choose overagainst the nature of the spirit within. we either live in error or in truth. It is God who chooses how we will act.(rom 9:19)

the spirit dwelling within, wether it be antichrist, or Christ, filters information and expresses our understanding.

either we will express christ or antichrist understanding.

its an all or nothing situation.

the christ spirit understands this.
yet the antichrist spirit is void of understanding

 

These are good examples of texts that do NOT say "The saints have corrupt carnal spirits devoid of the new birth or the Spirit of God - without Christ IN THEM the HOPE of Glory"

CHURCHES may have BOTH saints and non-saints in them. But to be a saint - is to be born again, IN Christ "IF ANYONE is IN CHRIST he IS a new creation" 2cor5.

"IF by the Spirit you ARE putting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN are you the children of God" Romans 8.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Bible indicates that every Christian is indwelled by the Spirit of God, [I John 3:9] and yet some Christians are 'carnal' [I Corinthians 3:1d,e] and periodically, commit sins. I Thessalonians 5:23 indicates that all Christians will not be fully perfected in spirit, soul and body until Jesus appears in the clouds at the rapture. {Greek: 'en' for the word in or at} So our final sanctification will take place at His coming.

 

True - the saints sin. But the point of the text above was to describe someone as devoid of the Spirit of Christ and "call that" salvation.

I don't see the Bible ever doing that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BTW - do you know of any well known Christian authors arguing the following points -

1. The Holy Spirit was not involved in the New Birth before the Cross.

2. The saints of the OT had to obtain salvation via obedience to the law as opposed to by grace through faith?

3. Salvation in the Old Testament was not possible. Nor was real forgiveness because Christ had not yet died.

4. OT saints were not actually Christians - believers in the Messiah - they were merely "the people of God".

5. The OT text applies to a non-Gospel system and is therefore not "scripture" for NT saints.

6. Anything Christ said before the cross applies only to people of the Old Covenant - saved by works not by grace.

7. If someone tries to be saved today in the same way people were saved before the cross - they instantly become a legalist and must go to hell. They "fall from grace".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

Most often we agree on Christian theology but your no. 3,5,6 and 7 seem to be the most extreme and are incorrect.

Ray

 

Well Ray - that just shows how much we really do agree.

I don't agree with any of the points I listed in my previous post. I am just looking for well-known Christian authors that do take those positions, even though I do not agree with them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
The only people, generally speaking, that I have ever ran across that believed some of these things are hyper-dispensationalist's.

May God bless us

 

Hey Guys,

Just thought I'd weigh in.

1) Salvation has always and only been by means of the new birth (regeneration, being born of the Spirit, etc). We know this because when Jesus explained it to Nicodemous, they were still under the Old Covenant. Christ had yet to go to the cross. Since Adam "died," salvation has always and only come by means of the new birth (being born of the Spirit).

2) Prior to Pentecost, those who were born of the Spirit were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit in a permanent fashion, nor were they baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ.

They were temporarily anointed with the HS by God from time to time to carry out a specific task. David for example was anointed with the HS to perform as King. That is why in his repentance in Ps. 51, he prays that the Spirit would not be taken from him. Had nothing to do with his salvation, but with his anointing as king. Saul was temporarily anointed, and the Spirit was removed from him. But this is not the Post-Pentecost indwelling or baptism.

Indwelling: Christ in you by agency of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism: You in the Body of Christ by agency of the Holy Spirit.

Both of these began at Pentecost and not before.

John 14:16 (In the upper room): "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides WITH you and WILL BE IN YOU."

He is WITH you. He will be IN you. That is the promise of the indwelling that had not yet taken place.

Later Luke writes

Acts 1:4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

That is the promise of the Baptism that would take place at Pentecost. Now remember some before Pentecost were said to be "full of the Spirit." But that had more to do with being filled with maturity by being filled with the Word.

One other thing to remember. The "in Christ" designation is clearly Post-Pentecost. Saints in the OT were "born from above." But they were not part of the Body or the Bride of Christ. In other words they were not "in Christ." They were the saints of the OT. Born of the Spirit, but not part of the body or bride. This doesn't make them less saved. It just means they were a different part of the "household of God" (Eph. 2:19-20).

Now as for the baptism of the HS that began at Pentecost; it began as a corporate thing.

JEWS
Acts 2: Apostles present - miraculous signs - tongues - believing OT Jews baptized into the brand new church body and given the indwelling HS.

SAMARITANS
Acts 8: Apostles present - miraculous signs - believing OT Samaritans baptized into the brand new church body and given the indwelling HS.

GENTILES
Acts 10-11: Apostles present - miraculous signs - tongues - believing OT Gentiles baptized into the brand new church body and given the indwelling HS.

DISCIPLES OF JOHN
Acts 19: Apostle present - miraculous signs - tongues - believing disciples of John baptized into the brand new church body and given the indwelling HS.

Now that confirmed in every people group. Apostles were present to verify that "in Christ" there is no Jew or Greek. They are all baptized by one Spirit into One body. From that point on (according to 1 Cor. 12:13) everyone born of God is simultaneously permanently indwelt and baptized into the body.

Hope this is correct and hope it helps!

 

dattgog,

I like most of your post but I think your first paragraph raises the most serious of questions.

First, there is no place in the O.T. that God uses the term signifying the fact that the people of God were 'born again.' Covenant theologians try to construe that this happened but it did not occur. O.T. saints were not 'regenerated' and only the kings of Israel, priests, and some artisans who worked on the Temple were indwelled by the Spirit of God.

Theologians tell us that John the Baptist was the last of the O.T. prophets; Nicodemus was converted under a transition period between the Old and New Covenants. In John 3:22 Jesus and his disciples may have baptized Nicodemus, but we for sure know that he was not baptized under John the Baptist's ministry unto repentance. Jesus dealt with Nicodemus personally.

You are right that Nicodemus' experience of coming into the faith was before Jesus' death on the Cross. This Pharisee was born of the water and the Spirit says John in 3:5.

Your last sentence in your quote above is absolutely wrong.

From Adam to Abraham sinners accepted the Lord Jehovah on purely a faith basis. From Abraham to Moses people were saved on the basis of their bringing an animal sacrifice before God, which portrayed to the Lord their obedience and acceptance into His grace via His atonement. From Moses until the conclusion of the Malachi's prophecy, people were saved by bring an animal sacrifice and by obeying the Law and all of the ordinances. Those who obeyed were accepted through the future atonement of Jesus. That is why the Pharisees were sticklers about obeying the least significant of the ordinances of the former covenant. [Hebrews 8:6]

Neither the Major or Minor prophets called sinners to be 'born again;' but they did call the lost to repentance and faith in the Lord. The reason why the Israelites backslid so easily was because they were not indwelled by the Spirit until the Day of Pentecost.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Hebrews 9:15 speaks to the fact that O.T. saints were saved by Christ's atonement, and the fact of two distinct covenants. 'The first testament . . . . {covenant} and the new testament {covenant}.

If they ignored the animal sacrifice and the Law it only proved that they would not obey the Lord in that era of time and remained outside of the 'first testament' {covenant}, and, therefore, were eternally lost and were placed in destruction away from the celestial Presence of Almighty God.

 

Ray:

First, there is no place in the O.T. that God uses the term signifying the fact that the people of God were 'born again.'
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Ray just because the terminology is not used doesn't mean that people weren't regenerated in the OT. Think. Regeneration simply means being born again. If Adam died spiritually and Eve died spiritually and in Adam all die, then regeneration or being BORN from above is the only way one could be made alive to believe. This doesn't make OT saints part of the church or part of the body of Christ. It simply made them alive to believe Yahweh. Like Abraham who believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Just because they didn't understand the new birth and just because it wasn't explained to them doesn't mean it wasn't happening.
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Ray: Covenant theologians try to construe that this happened but it did not occur.
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Ray I reject covenant theology roundly. It is an unbiblical system. But dead people in the OT were made alive to God. And the way dead people are made alive is through a birth from above.
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Ray: O.T. saints were not 'regenerated'
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You've not proven this at all.
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Ray: and only the kings of Israel, priests, and some artisans who worked on the Temple were indwelled by the Spirit of God.
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I do not believe they were indwelt. The Spirit "came upon them" or "anointed" them.
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Theologians tell us that John the Baptist was the last of the O.T. prophets; Nicodemus was converted under a transition period between the Old and New Covenants.
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I agree that JtB was the last of the OT prophets. And I agree that Nicodemous was converted at a transition time in history. But regeneration is trans-covenantal. It takes place in all dispensations even if other things are different. That is why Nicodemous was told by Jesus that one must be "born again." And by the way, this is still the OC time in redemptive history. Christ came to fulfill the law. And until He died, it was not fulfilled.
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Ray: In John 3:22 Jesus and his disciples may have baptized Nicodemus, but we for sure know that he was not baptized under John the Baptist's ministry unto repentance. Jesus dealt with Nicodemus personally.
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Doesn't matter. Regeneration transcends all dispensations, including John's baptism unto repentance for Israel.
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Ray: Your last sentence in your quote above is absolutely wrong.
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Quote: Since Adam "died," salvation has always and only come by means of the new birth (being born of the Spirit).

This is not a covenantal statement. It doesn't change the fact that from Adam to me sinners accepted the Lord Jehovah on purely a faith basis.

Now you made a statement that I can't imagine you believe ...

"From Abraham to Moses people were saved on the basis of their bringing an animal sacrifice before God, which portrayed to the Lord their obedience and acceptance into His grace via His atonement."

No one in any dispensation has ever been saved by their works, their obedience, their sacrifices or any other work. Salvation is always by grace alone through faith alone apart from works. David lived during the time between Moses and John and Romans 4 says clearly ...

Romans 4:3: For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."


I'll deal with the rest of your posts later ...

 

dattgog,

I agree with you here my brother.

The O.T. were caught up in the sacrificial system and the Law and not the warm feelings of the Spirit. There experience was more a trust in the Lord, without the witness of the Holy Spirit.

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The Old Testament does not teach a regeneration that you seem to believe.

Theologians tell us that John the Baptist was the last of the O.T. prophets; Nicodemus was converted under a transition period between the Old and New Covenants.
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What Scripture says that the laity were indwelled by the Spirit under the old covenant?

Read Acts 19:1-6 and you will see that John the Baptist's disciples had not received the Holy Spirit under his ministry. The Apostle Paul ran into some of the Baptist's converts and Paul baptized them in water and then 'laid his hands on them and the Holy Spirit entered their lives.

Actually, their obedience to the sacrifices and the Law were demanded by God. The people who refused these means, were outside of the covenant, and lost forever. If they had faith in the Lord, obedience to the priests and the Law would follow in their lives.

True. Nothing that we can bring to God before salvation will save our souls. When we believe in Jesus we are imputed with His righteousness, but good works must follow our confession of faith.

Again, Acts 19:1-6 proves that the disciples of the Baptist never heard of the Holy Spirit. [vs. 2d]

In Matthew 3:6 the Baptist baptizes his converts by water in the Jordan, if they confessed their sins to God.

In Matthew 3:11 we learn that only Jesus can baptize a person into the Holy Spirit. This points also to Acts 19:1-6 to clear up your error. In this passage the agent was the Apostle Paul who laid hands on the disciples of John the Baptist.

No problem, many Christians never see or understand Acts 19:1-6.

 

RAY, PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND UNTIL YOU HAVE CAREFULLY READ MY ENTIRE POST ...

Ray wrote: The O.T. (saints?) were caught up in the sacrificial system and the Law and not the warm feelings of the Spirit. There experience was more a trust in the Lord, without the witness of the Holy Spirit.
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Ray, of course the Holy Spirit couldn't bear witness of Christ in the OT. This has no bearing at all on my point, that the new birth has always been what brought men to life and faith, however that faith manifested itself in whatever period of time.
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Ray: The Old Testament does not teach a regeneration that you seem to believe.
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Ray, the Gospels are OT. In fact, the transitional ministry of John is transitional, but it is still the offer of the kingdom to Israel that is being preached. And entrance into that Kingdom (the OT hope) required the new birth, just as Jesus told Nicodemous.
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Ray: What Scripture says that the laity were indwelled by the Spirit under the old covenant?
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The indwelling Ray is not regeneration. I made that clear in my first post. So let's try it again.

Regeneration: Being born of God (In every dispensation)

Indwelling: Christ in the new creation by agency of the Holy Spirit. (Between Pentecost and the Rapture of the Church only)

Baptism: The new creation into Christ by agency of the Holy Spirit. (Between Pentecost and the Rapture of the Church only).
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Ray: Read Acts 19:1-6 and you will see that John the Baptist's disciples had not received the Holy Spirit under his ministry.
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Ray, regeneration is not the indwelling. In this age they take place simultaneously. But prior to all the people groups (Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles, John's Disciples - SEE MY FIRST POST AND READ IT) regenerated people were not indwelt!
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Ray: The Apostle Paul ran into some of the Baptist's converts and Paul baptized them in water and then 'laid his hands on them and the Holy Spirit entered their lives.
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No, the Holy Spirit indwelt them. That is not the new birth that had already taken place in them. And I'll tell you how we know. These men had done exactly what John said. If they had died before Paul got to them, they'd have gone to heaven ... because ... like Jesus said ... they had been born again.
---------------------------------------------Ray: Actually, their obedience to the sacrifices and the Law were demanded by God.
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Ray, repenting and believing are demanded by God too. But unless you are born again, you can't please God (Rom. 8:8), subject yourself to the law of God (Rom. 8:7), seek God (Rom. 3:10-ff), or understand the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14).
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Ray: The people who refused these means, were outside of the covenant, and lost forever. If they had faith in the Lord, obedience to the priests and the Law would follow in their lives.
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So, that is the same in every dispensation, even in transition times. John said repent and bear fruit in keeping with repentance. That supposes the new birth. Peter said repent and be baptized. That supposes the new birth. This doesn't have a bearing at all on the question of whether or not OT believers were born of the Spirit.
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Ray:
quote:
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But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness . . .
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True. Nothing that we can bring to God before salvation will save our souls. When we believe in Jesus we are imputed with His righteousness, but good works must follow our confession of faith.
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Ray, you've completely left the question. This has nothing to do with the question of the new birth of OT saints. But I do want to comment on some of your statements.

1) Ray: Nothing that we can bring to God before salvation will save our souls.
- You don't believe that Ray. You repeatedly say that we must bring belief before God.

2) Ray: Nothing that we can bring to God before salvation will save our souls.
- Ray, you said in a previous post ...

"From Moses until the conclusion of the Malachi's prophecy, people were saved by bring an animal sacrifice and by obeying the Law and all of the ordinances.."

I showed you that Paul says that David (who was a believer who lived between Moses and Malachi) was saved by grace through faith (Rom. 4:3-6). That absolutely, unequivocally refutes your exact words.
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Ray: Again, Acts 19:1-6 proves that the disciples of the Baptist never heard of the Holy Spirit. [vs. 2d]
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Doesn't matter ... they had been born of the HS. You don't have to know of Him to be born of Him.
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Ray: In Matthew 3:6 the Baptist baptizes his converts by water in the Jordan, if they confessed their sins to God.
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Right, because they had been born from above.
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Ray: In Matthew 3:11 we learn that only Jesus can baptize a person into the Holy Spirit. This points also to Acts 19:1-6 to clear up your error.
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I'll say it again, and maybe you'll be given grace to see it. REGENERATION (THE NEW BIRTH, BEING BORN OF THE SPIRIT, ETC) IS NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT THE BAPTISM OR THE INDWELLING.

You are the one who is unclear. And you are the one in error.
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Ray: No problem, many Christians never see or understand Acts 19:1-6.
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I couldn't agree more ...

 

dattgog,

In Matthew 3:6 the Baptist baptizes his converts by water in the Jordan, if they confessed their sins to God.'

You take a lot for granted seeing that the O.T. does not say that any laity were indwelled or baptized into the Holy Spirit. If God's plan was, and it was, that people were required to have faith in the Lord, to offer sacrifices, and after Moses to obey the Law, then no one has anything to say about these required evidences of following the Lord.

When God saw faith in the Lord He did not need to indwell them with the Spirit under the former covenant. Scripture does not give evidence of the comforting Presence of the Spirit in the lives of the O.T. people of God.

Does God say that He sanctified the people under the Old Covenant? We know He purified His people but there is no statement as to the Holy Spirit entering His own people.

God would not have had Paul offer the Holy Spirit to the Baptist's disciples, if the Lord had already ministered the Spirit of God in their hearts through John the Baptist's baptismal hands. This is not rocket science if you let the scripture speak for itself. [Acts 19:1-6]

Beyond this I do not think I can convince you.

 

Ray,

Pardon me for interjecting, but are you reading dattgog's posts? dattgog never said that OT saints, be they laity or anyone else, was indwelt or baptized into the Holy Spirit. He has said, and there is plenty of Scripture to cite, several instances where the anointing of the Spirit was specially upon some individuals. I believe this is what David refers to in Psalm 51. The indwelling of the Spirit is unique to this age. Regeneration is not dependent upon the indwelling of the Spirit.

Regarding your final paragraph, can you provide Scriptural evidence that regeneration (i.e. the new birth, i.e. being born of the Spirit (John 3)) is the same as being indwelt by the Spirit, if that is what you are contending. It seems to be judging by your last paragraph. Jesus told His disciples in the upper room that the Spirit was with them then, but promised them that soon the Spirit would be IN them. Are you contending that the disciples were not regenerate in the upper room?

 

mprivett,

Read p. 1 the last post on this page. Paragraph no. 3. 'priest, prophets, etc.

Dr. Berrian

 

Where were the priests, prophets, and kings, etc. baptized in the spirit? And I would still like you to answer the questions in the second paragraph of my previous post. Thanks.

 

If you claim that Christ spoke to Nicodemus in John 3 after the cross not before -- and then if you could ever prove such a thing -- then you would be right.

If you claim that the scriptures Christ claimed to be teaching the new birth pre-cross were not the OT -- and if you ever could prove such a thing -- then you would be right.

If you claim that the New Heart given to Saul pre-cross was not the new birth -- and if you could prove such a thing -- then you would be right.

If you claim that the OT Giants of Faith in Heb 11 were giants of faith as Carnal depraved unconverted sinners - and you could prove such a gospel existed -- then you would be right.

But since you can not show that any of that is true -- you are in error on this point.

In Christ,

Bob