Rom. 3:23 in the ISV

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Craigbythesea, Jun 11, 2004.

  1. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    This is a thread for those are students of the Greek N.T. Please comply.

    Rom. 3:23 since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory. (INS)

    What do you all think of this translation found in the International Standard Version?
     
  2. skanwmatos

    skanwmatos
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    The tense of the Greek word is a simple present tense. (Passive indicative.) It is not an imperfect, implying continuing action. It is a statement of fact regarding the present state of the persons in question.
     
  3. gb93433

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    Beecause it is a present passive indicative it is the subject who is the recipient of the action. I would take that to mean they are falling short of God's glory in the present tense. It is real in present time. I see no agency expressed.

    Drunright writes, In the present tense the idea of continuing action is prominent. In another part of his book he writes, "Present tense is linear. Action in progress or continuing action..."
     
  4. DeclareHim

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    I'm not a student of the Greek N.T. but I hope you dont mind me asking a question from the above did the ISV translate Romans 3:23 right. From the Greek thx.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Present tense does imply continuous action. And is it "passive"? I would assume "middle".

    We "ourselves are continually falling short" of God's glory.
     
  6. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    DeclareHim,

    It looks to me as though you have taken the first step in becoming a student of the Greek N.T. Welcome to this thread!

    You asked a question, “Did the ISV translate Romans 3:23 right?” That is a very good question, one which not very many 16-year-olds would honestly ask. I am very grateful to see that you are doing so. The answer, however, is not as straightforward as the question. Most translators would say that the translators of the ISV put too much emphasis on the continuous action meaning in the Greek present indicative tense of the verb translated “continue to fall short” in Rom. 3:23. We can see this by looking at how other translators translate the Greek text here:

    -- King James
    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    -- New King James
    Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    -- American Standard
    Romans 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

    -- Revised Standard
    Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    -- International English
    Romans 3:23 because everyone has sinned and is far away from God's glory.

    -- New American Standard
    Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    -- New Jerusalem
    Romans 3:23 No distinction is made: all have sinned and lack God's glory,

    -- New American
    Romans 3:23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.

    -- New Revised Standard
    Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God;

    -- Young's Bible
    Romans 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -

    -- Darby's Bible
    Romans 3:23 for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    -- Weymouth's New Testament
    Romans 3:23 for all alike have sinned, and all consciously come short of the glory of God,

    -- Webster's Bible
    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    -- New Living Translation
    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard.

    -- William's NewTestament
    Romans 3:23 For everybody has sinned and everybody continues to come short of God's glory,

    -- Montgomery New Testament
    Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and lack the glory which comes from God,

    If you downloaded all of the English translation modules available for free in your E-Sword program, you have some others that are not included here. If you have not downloaded all of them, I encourage you to do so, and also the several Greek texts that you can download for free in the E-Sword program.

    [Continued in next post ]
     
  7. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    [Continued from previous post]

    Another step that you can take that would be very fruitful for your personal Bible study would be to learn more about each of the translations that you have available to you. This is a lot of work and takes a lot of time. Some people will tell you that the KJV is a perfect translation, the very Word of God, and that all of the other translations are some kind of a counterfeit. Other people will tell you something very different. This message board, especially this forum on Bible versions and translations, is an excellent place to find some very good, and some very poor, information. Read and pray about what each of us has to say and get to know us to find out who is posting accurate information, and who is posting inaccurate or even false information. (Don’t forget to Pray!)

    You can also begin to learn about the Greek and Hebrew languages on the internet for free. Your E-Sword program offers free downloads of Greek texts of the New Testament as well as the KJV along with the numbers that James Strong assigned to each Greek word in his concordance. Using your E-Sword program, you can find out the assigned number of each Greek word, and then look up each Greek word by its number. When you do this, you will learn how to pronounce the Greek word and find a brief description of the meaning of the word. For example, to study the Greek word for “grace” in Ephesians 2:8, download the module for the King James Version that includes the numbers from Strong’s concordance. Then look up Ephesians 2:8 using that module (once you have downloaded it, its name will be KJV+). You will find there the following:

    Eph 2:8 For1063 by grace5485 are2075 ye saved4982 through1223 faith;4102 and2532 that5124 not3756 of1537 yourselves:5216 it is the3588 gift1435 of God:2316

    If you have not already done so, download Strong’s concordance and the tab for it will appear in the space between the Bible window and the dictionary window. Move your mouse till the insertion point is over the number (G5485) right after the word “grace” in Eph. 2:8 in the Bible window and automatically a small window will pop up that will give you this information:

    G5485
    χάρις
    charis
    khar'-ece
    From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

    In order to copy and past the information, you will need to go down to the dictionary window and the bottom of your screen and copy the information from that window (it will be the identical information but in a format that you can copy just like any ordinary text).

    There are many Greek dictionaries (lexicons) that are newer and go into much more detail that what you will find in Strong’s concordance, and some of them are VERY expensive. They can wait till later. You will also need to study Greek grammar, and there is much information about Greek grammar on the internet that you can study for free at your leisure.

    But above all else, you will need to spend time alone with God in prayer and in the Bible. Pray every day for God to teach you the truth and protect you from error, and to help you to live to His honor and His glory, and He will bless your life beyond measure!

    Jesus loves you more than you could ever possibly imagine, and He knows every problem that you have and every solution to every problem. Love Him and be faithful to Him in everything, and He will work all things in your life to your good. Thank you for posting on this message board and in this thread. “Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim
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    Thanks I will start studying the Greek in the way you mentioned above.I will definetly stay in prayer and I know God will show me His will for my life. In all areas.
     
  9. Craigbythesea

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    Amen! [​IMG]
     
  10. gb93433

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    \

    It's interesting that you mentioned middle voice because A.T. Robertson calls it a middle and Gramcord calls it a passive. The only other passive I saw used was in 1 Cor. 8:8 and no middle voice is used in the NT that stems fromt he same word.
     
  11. Craigbythesea

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    I believe that Paul had in mind the middle rather than the passive voice. I also believe that the ISV exaggerates the continuousness of the action. In order to be consistent, they would have to render John 3:16 quite differently than they do:

    John 3:16 "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life. (ISV)

    John 3:16 would then read in the ISV:

    John 3:16 "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who continues believing in him might not perish but continue to have eternal life.

    Tertullian, of course, believed that continuing to believe in Christ was absolutely essential for continued salvation, and used John 3:16 as a proof text. [​IMG]
     
  12. skanwmatos

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    I agree. If we carry Dr. Bob's assertion to its logical conclusion our continuing salvation is based on our continuing faith. If we ever have, even a momentary, lapse of faith, according to his understanding of the present tense, we would also suffer a lapse of salvation. How does one become "unborn again?" [​IMG]
     

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