Rom. 5:13-14 - Law and Death

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Rom. 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
    even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


    Paul asserts that "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin, and so death passed upon all" (v. 12) and now is defending that assertion in verses 13-19.

    His first argument to prove that assertion is verse 13-14a. Let us look at it phrase by phrase:

    "(For until the law sin was in the world"

    He must be referring to the law given to God by Moses which revealed the death penalty for violating it. There is no other reason to limit the time to "Moses" if this is not the law Paul has in mind here. Moreover, God made it clear that the violation of the Mosaic law carried the death penalty and Paul is trying to prove "death by sin."

    "but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

    Paul claims that sin cannot be imputed when there is no KNOWN and REVEALED Law that death is the consequence for violation. However, the only law publicly given by God between Adam and Moses comparable to the law of Moses which clearly states that death is the consequence for its violation is Genesis 2:17. Nowhere can one find the law of conscience revealed in between Adam and Moses to men and nowhere is it revealed that violation of the law of conscience results in death. One can find the revelation of the particular law of murder results in death (Gen. 9) but nowhere can the law of conscience be found or where death is stated to be the consequence of its violation. However, it cannot be said of Noah that "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin" as sin and death had preexisted Noah. Neither can it be said of Moses that "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin" as sin and death preexisted Moses. It can only be said of Adam that "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin" and the only law possible for that violation is Genesis 2:17 which NONE BETWEEN ADAM AND MOSES could possibly violate as it was confined within and only possible within the Garden of Eden as nowhere else could the tree of knowledge and evil be found and yet death reigned between Adam and Moses.

    even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression,

    Here is a special group of humans "even over them" who "had not sinned" in some sense but nevertheless died who also lived between Adam and Moses.
    The sense they had "not sinned" is "after the similitude of Adam's transgression." The word "similitude" means "likeness." They had not sinned LIKE Adam Sinned. What was the "likeness" of Adam's transgression?

    Paul says Adam was "not deceived" as was Eve. He sinned consciously, knowingly and willfully with his eyes wide open:

    1 Tim. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    There is no other explanation for the death of infants and mentally impaired between Adam and Moses except that "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin, and so death passed upon all" because all men existed and consisted in one human nature acting in unison as one man violating Genesis 2:17. Under the law of Moses infants were regarded as "unclean" and had to go through a rite of cleansing. However, that symbolic rite of cleansing inferred infants are born into this world with a sin nature and thus are to be regarded as "unclean."

    Again, verses 13-14 are presented to substantiate the assertion that "for by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; so that death passed upon all men."

    The argument that condemnation (death by sin) comes upon men because of their own individual sins is repudiated throughout verses 15-19 by the repititious "by one man" many were "condemned" "made sinners" etc. This repititious "by one man" continues to prove the assertion that "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin."

    Death comes by sin and the death that came by the sin of "one man" is passed upon all is proved because no other reason for death, and particularly the death of infants between Adam and Moses can be accounted for but the violation of Genesus 2:17 by "one man" - Adam.

    Death cannot be passed apart from sin because "death by sin" and it is the sin of Adam that all humanity participated in - "for all have sinned". He does not say "all MIGHT sin" or "all who will sin" as the Arminian interpretation demands but the Aorist tense completed action "all have SINNED." Death passed upon all because all sinned when Adam sinned as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin. By one man's disobedience "many were made sinners." By one man's disobedience many were condemned under sin to death because death by sin. This is why infants die because they were present and participated in the whole of human nature consisting and existing in "one man" and by one man sin entered the world and death by sin, and so death passed upon all, because all men have sinned.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2013
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  2. Winman

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    Romans 5:13-14 is not teaching Original Sin.

    First we are directly told persons from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin. If your view is correct (it isn't) then these persons would be guilty of sinning the EXACT same sin as Adam. In fact, you are trying to argue that this is the only sin that could be imputed them.

    No, they died because they broke the law written on their heart as Paul had already spoken in chapter 2.

    Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

    Paul said that those without law PERISH without law. Why? Because the law is written on their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness.

    Paul did not say one word about Adam here, because these persons perished for their own sin, not Adam's.

    Secondly, if Paul was trying to teach Original Sin in Rom 5:13-14, then why did he stop short at Moses? If he were teaching OS he would have said ALL MEN, not just men from Adam to Moses.

    So, your view is easily refuted by scripture.
     
  3. kyredneck

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    If one is willing and up for it, there is a nice little mini-type in that; Adam willingly partook of the fruit so that he could be with his wife Eve, just as Christ partook of the cross so that He could have His Bride, the Church.
     
  4. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    Go learn the meaning of "simlitude" or use equal language in both of your first two sentences above.

    Paul's argument in verse 13-14a is that law informing men of death due to violation must be known or else it cannot be imputed. There is no such law of conscience revealed between Genesis to Exodus, and especially revealed to man that death is the consequence.

    Paul is defending his opening sentence "by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and so death passed upon all men for all have sinned." Verses 13-19 are designed to prove this point and your interpretation contradicts that point.

    If your intepretation were correct Paul should have said, "for by one man sin entered the world and death by sin, and so all who die have sinned." But that is not what he said, he claims all men have already sinned (Aorist tense completed action) and that is impossible except and unless it occured when all men existed and consisted as one human nature and acted in unison when Adam sinned.

    The whole argumentation from verses 13-19 is to prove that BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDENCE many be dead, condemned, made sinners which is contrary to your whole interpretation.

    Your question shows your complete ignorance of this text. The reason that he stopped with Moses is because beginning with Moses there is another public law where death is specifically stated to be the consequence for violaing it - the Mosaic Law. However, no such public law existed before Moses except Genesis 2:17 that specified death as the consequence of its violation and could be attributed to death of all mankind living. and all mankind existed in one human nature and only Adam could have violated that.

    Second, beginning with Moses, infants were regarded as "unclean" and ceremonially "defiled" and the uncircumcised infant was to be rejected from Israel's life.
     
  6. Winman

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    I KNOW the definition of similitude. Romans 5:14 tells us that men from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin in a similar fashion as Adam. If fact, it was impossible to do so, as men were barred from the garden of Eden where the tree of knowledge of good and evil was.

    Baloney, in Romans 2 Paul explains the men without the law perish without the law because they are a law to themselves, they have the law written on their hearts.

    Men from Adam to Moses knew quite clearly when they sinned.

    Gen 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.

    No, Paul is showing that even without Moses' law there was sin in the world, and that all men justly spiritually died because they broke the law written on their hearts and conscience.

    That is exactly what Paul is explaining, that death from Adam to Moses proves men sinned even though there was no law.

    Yes, because of Adam's disobedience and sentence of death, all men who followed Adam and sinned were judged "sinners" and the sentence of death also passed upon them. Adam was the legal precedent for all men who came after him.

    Baloney, if Paul was teaching Original Sin then he would not have stopped with Moses. He would have said "all men" The fact that Paul stops at Moses proves he is not teaching Original Sin.

    Baloney, Leviticus 12 teaches that the mother is unclean, not her baby.

    Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

    If a woman gave birth to a male child she was unclean for seven days, if she gave birth to a female child she was unclean for fourteen days. The child was not unclean at all.

    Show where the scriptures say a newborn child is unclean, you can't do it.
     
    #6 Winman, Dec 26, 2013
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  7. The Biblicist

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    Go learn the meaning of "similitude" and then come back and talk. You obviously don't understand it or you would not make it equal with "exact same sin."

    Paul is repudiating YOUR DOCTRINE of legal precedent that Adam's sin only provides a pattern or LIKENESS for law to judge us of our sins which are LIKE his sin.

    Our position is the very opposite. We say that all men actually literally existed in one man and sinned when Adam sinned. Death did not come to us because we sinned LIKE Adam nor did it come upon infants among those who lived between Adam and Moses because they sinned LIKE Adam. Indeed, they committted no willful sin and yet died and so the only possible explanation for their death (and death is the subject) is that they actually and literally sinned "in Adam" when Adam sinned.
     
  8. Winman

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    I do know the definition of similitude, I will post it for you;

    the quality or state of being similar to something.
    synonyms: resemblance, similarity, likeness, sameness, similar nature, comparability, correspondence, comparison, analogy, parallel, parallelism, equivalence;


    I know what you believe, you believe all mankind was in Adam's loins and participated in his sin. I know that you also believe Levi paid tithes to Melchizedec because Levi was in Abraham's loins.

    If this were true, then Jesus would have been a sinner, because he was made of the fruit of David's loins.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Jesus was the fruit of David's loins. So if sin is passed down from father to son, Jesus would have been guilty of committing adultery with Bathsheba as David did.

    In fact, all men would be guilty of committing all of his father's sins going all the way back to Adam if your view was correct.

    No, God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Your view is easily shown to be error.
     
    #8 Winman, Dec 26, 2013
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  9. The Biblicist

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    Would a fair assessment of your post be that it is full of "baloney"???

    1. There is no law revealed to men where death is stipulated as the penalty for all Adam's descendents between Adam and Moses except Genesis 2:17 and for any other human being to have violated it required all human beings to have violated it in the person of Adam as none but Adam could have violated it. Yet is it this ONE OFFENCE that is the contexual repeated cause that many "be dead" rather than violation of their conscience or because of their own individual acts of sin.

    2. There is no law that can be found between Adam and Moses which claims the universal cause of death in all mankind except Genesis 2:17. No such law about conscience can be found that attributes UNIVERSAL death to mankind between Adam and Moses.

    3. Romans 2:14-15 is not given as a UNIVERSAL LAW but only for those without the law of Moses (Rom. 2:11-13) and not for all men but only for Gentiles or pagans never been given special revelation. However, Romans 5:12-19 is all about ONE MAN and ONE ACT that brings judgment to the condemnation of death upon all men.
     
  10. Winman

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    Wrong (again). Romans 2:12-14 does apply to all men without the law.

    Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    Romans 2:12 says "as many" men who have sinned without the law shall perish without the law.

    Why? Because of Adam?? NO, there is not one word mentioning Adam here, but each man sins when he offends the law written on his heart and conscience. This could hardly happen before a man is conceived in the womb. Men do not develop self-awareness or a conscience until they are several years old.

    You need to hang it up, you are trying to twist and manipulate scripture to agree with Calvinism, but it will never work.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Do you have a reading problem????? The words "as many as" is a flat denial this is the universal standard for judgment!!! Indeed, anyone reading Romans 2:11-15 can easily see this is not the standard for judging the Jews (see verses 11-13) but is only the standard for judging gentiles who do not have the law. This is not the law written on their hearts but the conscience serves only to do "THE WORK of the law" which is to discern right from wrong.

    In contrast Romans 5:12-19 is referring to one act of disobedence by one man that brought UNIVERSAL death and none can deny he is referring to the violation of Genesis 2:17 as that is the only possible law Adam violated which brought universal death upon all men. That is the only law revealed between Genesis and Exodus that reveals UNIVERSAL DEATH as its consequence for violation - Period! No such revelation of conscience is ever provided between Genesis and Exodus as the cause of UNIVERSAL DEATH - that is purely imaginary and contrary to the very limits Paul places on conscience "AS MANY AS" which is a disclaimer that it is the universal standard used on judgement day to condemn, but only inserted to judge Gentiles without special written revelation.

    You can't quote a single scripture without perverting what it says.

    I though you said you were not going to continue arguing with me????
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2013
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  12. Winman

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    It applied to the Jews until Moses. And it applied to all men in the world from Adam to Moses. That is universal.

    You don't get it, if your view is correct, then Romans 2:12-15 is a lie. First, there would be no such thing as men without the law.

    You believe ALL MEN were in Adam don't you? Then all men would have had Adam's law. This would make Romans 12:12-15 a falsehood, there would be no such thing as men without law.

    Secondly, Romans 12:12-15 teaches that these men without the law died because they offended the law written on their hearts and conscience.

    But if your view is correct, they died because they sinned with Adam in the garden.

    Your view is false dude, give it up.
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    Find it between Adam and Moses where it was revealed to ALL MANKIND that violation of conscence is concludes in UNIVERSAL DEATH!!!! You cannot find such a law revealed to men that warns them of death for violating conscience. Neither is it used that way on Judgement day. It is used on judgement day ONLY to prove sin in those who have no special revelation.

    Since Paul is directly dealing with how sin and death became UNIVERSAL why does he simply not say it is violation of their conscience?????? HE DOES NOT give that as the cause only YOU DO!



    You don't get it! Romans 2:12-15 is NOT RESTRICTED TO CONSCIENCE to prove universal sin or don't you understand the words "as many as"????? Conscience is not used to prove UNIVERSAL SIN in Romans 2 or Romans 5. It is introduced in Romans 2 ONLY FOR THOSE who have no special revelation. Genesis 2:17 was special revelation. Genesis 9 provides special revelation. Exodus 20 provides special revelation but only Genesis 2:17 provides special revelation for the reason of UNIVERSAL DEATH and no other revelation provides that between Adam and Moses.

    1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die
    ,

    And physical death in direct connection to sin is in view (15:25, 56-57).

    Rom. 5:12 Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:


    1. Conscience in Romans 2 is brought in only as SUPPLEMENTAL to the Law to prove sin not to prove the origin of death.

    2. Romans 5 deals with the source/origin of universal death.

    3. The only LIE is the way you pervert Romans 2 which is SUPPLEMENTAL for use on judgement day to prove existence of individual sin and FORCE it into Romans 5 where the ORIGIN of sin and death is the subject.

    I think you mean Romans 2 rather than Romans 12. Romans 2:11-13 has NOTHING to do with the conscience but with the Mosaic Law. Romans 2:14-15 is SUPPLEMENTAL only to the Mosaic law and only in regard to those without any special revelation but you force upon verses 14-15 as the universal cause for death between Adam and Moses when no such law is given as the cause of universal sin or death between Adam and Moses but the only sin and only law given as the cause is Genesis 2;17 as that is the only law possible by which one man - Adam - could violate and could bring sin and death by sin into the world.
     
  14. Winman

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    Baloney, Romans 2:12-15 says men without law shall PERISH without law, because by nature they do the things contained in the law, showing the law written in their hearts.


    Paul said men die "for that all have sinned" in Romans 5:12. Paul also said men who have sinned without law perish without law. This could not possibly be speaking of Adam's sin.

    Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    If your view is correct, then Romans 2:12 is a falsehood. You believe all men were in Adam's loins and sinned WITH Adam. They would have had Adam's law, and they would have died because of Adam's law. But Romans 2:12-15 speaks of men WITHOUT LAW, who perish WITHOUT LAW. Why? Because they violated the law written in their heart.

    Romans 2:12 says AS MANY as sinned without law perish without law. Before Moses this would have been universal, as there was no law yet.


    This is physical death only. The 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians is the resurrection chapter.

    If it were speaking of spiritual death, then it would refute Original Sin, because it says "in Adam all DIE" which is future tense. That would mean they were originally spiritually alive. So this scripture would refute Original Sin.

    Again, 1 Cor 15 is about physical death, not spiritual.

    I know what I am saying. Paul shows in Romans 2:12-15 that men without the law perish without the law because they have offended the law written in their hearts.

    This would apply to ALL MEN from Adam to Moses which Paul speaks about in Romans chapter 5.

    Give it up man, your view is error.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    You are JERKING a text out of context.

    1. Romans 2 has NOTHING to do with the origin of sin and death in the human race but the day of judgement and SUPPLEMENTARY proof of the existence of individual sins.

    2. Romans 5 NEVER ONCE mentions conscience or individual sins as the source of universal sin and death in the human race.

    3. Romans 5:12-19 repeatedly demand that Genesis 2:17 is the only possible law that is the source of universal death and sin as again and again the singular sin of one man is attributed the cause of universal sin and death rather than plural individuals and their plural sins.






    No, it does not say "men die" but death is passed from Adam's sin to all men and that all have already "sinned" in direct connection with the preceding statement "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin" rather than by the sins of all men hath passed upon all men AS YOUR VIEW DEMANDS.



    Romans 2 refers to INDIVIDUAL SINS and INDIVIDUAL eternal punishment whereas Romans 5 deals only with ONE SIN by ONE MAN that makes many to "Be dead" and "made sinners" in direct contrast to INDIVIDUAL SINS PLURAL that make many be dead or many be sinners AS YOUR INTERPRETATION DEMANDS.

    You are mixing oranges with apples when you confuse Romans 2 with Romans 5 as they are speaking of two different things (1) origin versus conclusion of sin; (2) Adam's sin versus individual sins.


    I have repudiated this four times and you have yet to respond to ONE EVIDENCE that your charge is false but just act like a parrot repeating the same disproven nonsense.






    What don't you get about the fact that in 1 Corinthians 15:21-22; 56-57 that physical death is directly attributed to one man - Adam and his SIN which is the violation of Genesis 2:17 by Adam and not Romans 2:14-15????????? Thus to keep saying that either Genesis 2:17 or Romans 5:12-19, which is about the violation of Genesis 2:17 by one man, is not inclusive of PHYSICAL DEATH is living in fairy land.

    Are you incapable of READING or using an Lexicon?????? "die" is PRESENT TENSE not future tense and the Greek term it translates is PRESENT tense not future tense as you falsely claim. Physical death begins the very moment when physical life occurs as the principle of "corruption" and death is at work in the body and the proof is that infants die in the womb, dying due to progressive diseases in the body, etc. Physical death is the manifest evidence of spiritual death and the only way to separate them is by new birth and separation of the born again spirit from the body.


    Pure nonsense! It would be no more a contradiction than spiritually alive children of God existing in dying bodies. God prevented spiritual dead spirits from continuing to exist in incorruptible bodies. The two are not inseparable as that would mean spiritual born again persons could not live within a dying body. Go figure!

    You are just repeating yourself over and over WITHOUT ADRESSING A SINGLE SOLITARY evidence of many provided that completely repudiate these baseless assertions and repititions.
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    For paul to reason from the text that just as all died in adam, all now in Christ are made alive again, and that ONE Man in Adam brought physical and spiritual death to all, and jesus brought spiritual life to all in HIm, BOTH of them have to be the ferderal head over each group of humanity before God!

    Each group got same judgement or vindication based upon what their 'leader" over them did before God!
     

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