Rom 5:15-17

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Nov 13, 2011.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Romans 5:15-17


    15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift[By One] is of many offences unto justification.

    17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ )

    Whose act was more powerful ? Adam's or Christ ?

    When we read these verses Paul in His gospel is showing that there was a typical correspondence between adam and Christ, but yet the parallel does show a difference in the nature of their acts and effects.

    First the nature of their actions were different in that adam sinned in the most ideal and pristine of circumstances.

    The Lord Jesus Christ on the other hand remained pure and obedient under the worst of conditions, yet adam sinned and Christ remained righteous.

    Now between the Two consequences of the actions of the Two, they differ somewhat in degree, notice vs 15

    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    Paul is saying, that the Gift [Christ and His work on the Cross] is not like the trespass [adam's transgression] Christ work being a work of Grace [Heb 2:9] and He being God Man, that what He did is way more powerful that what adam did and we in him that act of demerit.

    Yes his brought as consequences "death" to his offspring:

    Yet how much more [with no question] does the gift that flows from Grace, the effects of the God Man, overflow to the many, for their benefit..
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    There is yet another difference vs 16

    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

    That is one sin by adam brought in condemnation to the many, but the free gift [the effects of Christ cross] cancels out the one sin in adam and all the many subsequent sins of each of the many ! One more thing is here contrasted, in that adam's sin resulted in condemnation and death, Christ [cross work] results in Justification even unto Life vs18! In other words it provides life from the death in adam that was caused..There can be no Justification without life attending with it.

    Now notice, these results are not something that are offered for acceptance, but what is passed on and received..
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    Now Romans 5: 17 is a summary of what was declared in verses 15-16 and it reads:

    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ )

    If by One mans offence [adam] death reigned by him, that is all his descendants receive death, not that they were offered death and could make a choice of whether they want it or not, but they received it by Divine Decree, so likewise, the descendants of Jesus Christ receive abundance of Grace with the Gift of righteousness,and shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ.

    This is very important, because in order for Christ's act to be superior to adam's, Those whom He represented from adams death, must receive abundance of grace,not by offer, but by Divine Decree, that they may reign in life through Jesus Christ.

    Their receiving this abundance of Grace is no more conditioned upon them doing something to receive it as was those receiving death from adam having to do something to receive death, both receiving are automatic effects because of the Acts of Each Head in regards to their descendants..
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    sbm:
    HP: Now I do not disagree that the life of Christ is superior to that of Adam's, but you could not be further from the truth with the remark above. Salvation is indeed offered and must be accepted by the individual. God, in His Omniscience can indeed decree that some will indeed be saved, but that in no wise supports your notion that salvation comes not by offer but by Divine decree, i.e., necessitated salvation. You are jumping to unwarranted conclusions that defy reason, experience, and Scripture. Many passages refute the necessitated notion you are trying to present. Here is but just one such passage. " Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Question for the list: If physical death was the penalty for sin, why have not all died and why do those that receive the life of Christ by faith still receive that whch sbm states is the said penalty of sin? How can God reqiure man to continue to pay for that which, if death is the penalty of sin, has already been paid for by Christ?
     
  6. savedbymercy

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    hp

    .
    That is what you say, and not scripture. I have just showed what scripture says about it. For you to make such a statement, means that men were offered death and could either receive it or reject it after being represented by Adam. Do you believe that ? That man had a choice to accept death ?
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Let me ask you a question. Did Enoch or Elijah see physical death according to Scripture? Will those that are alive and are raptured at the coming of our Lord see death?
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    That is off topic ! Stick to the thread and the scripture evidence I have provided. Dont change the subject, that is being a coward spiritually !
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    hp stated:



    sbm responded:

    hp avoided the question I asked, and brought up something about Elijah and Enoch !

    hp, please answer the question of post # 6 !
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    How is asking you a direct question concerning physical death, which you brought up by the way, 'off topic?' If it was off topic why did you even mention physical death? Your silence (combined with your personal attack) concerning my question speaks wonders.

    In response to your question to me concerning physical death, (which amazingly you did not see as 'off topic' to ask me) my answer would be no. I did not choose to accept physical death as a consequence of being born human, and there is a chance (if I am alive at the coming of Christ) I will not see physical death. What does that have to do with the Scriptural notion of being required by God to do something in order to be saved, like repent, believe, and exercise faith just for starters???
     
    #10 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2011
  11. Thinkingstuff

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    So, your assumption is that God will save you kicking and screaming? I don't think that is scriptural either. Here look at what Acts chp 2 says
    It is clearly evidence that there is an acceptance aspect to recieving a gift. Or how about Jesus own words
    clearly here the choice to to believe over not to believe. and clearly your works are the evidence of your belief as this passage shows.
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: The Scripture as understood by sbm would read: Whoever God did not arbitrarily choose is condemned forever because I, God, did not arbitrarily choose them.

    How true were the words of Calvin when he stated that his beliefs necessitated double predestination. Sadly, sbm is following lockstep in Calvin's footsteps.
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

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    Still that interpretation of that passage is problematic under an Infralapsarian perspective. However, it certainly doesn't answer Acts Chp 2.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


    Of a truth, man is in control of his own spiritual destiny according to Scripture, contrary to the notions of the false fatalism sbm is touting.
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Nice to see you still around Thinkingstuff!

    Maybe you can start a thread on your thoughts on Acts 2?
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    thinking st

    Do you wanna comment on what I have posted on Rom 5:15-17 the contrast Paul makes with Adam and what He did and it's results, and Christ and what He did and its results ? Other than that, i will ignore foolish and unlearned questions and comments.

    So then you believe there was an acceptance of receiving condemnation for the actions that adam did ?

    Obviously you believe man saves himself. That is a false Gospel ! Peter by no means by that exhortation meant that men can save themselves from their sins.

    But by you referencing that, it is a dead giveaway what you believe, which is salvation by the works and efforts of man !
     
    #16 savedbymercy, Nov 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2011
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Here is a verse for SBM to consider:

    Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    Thats works ! and has nothing to do with Rom 5:15-17 and the comparison of the results of Adam and Christ..
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Oh, so they preached salvation by works in the OT?? Have you spent time in Hebrews lately?
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    hp

    No, Salvation has always been by Grace ! You are the one preaching salvation by works, by what a man does..
     

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