rom11-postmill

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. Iconoclast

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    ROMANS 11, PAUL, & POSTMILLENNIALISM
    Israel, New Testament March 24, 2014 Comments: 2

    PMT 2014-036 by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.Israel converted

    Paul was a postmillennialist. We can know this by process of deduction. We know he was not a dispensationalist, because the dispensational system is so complicated that it took 1830 years to develop. Plus he never presents a Rapture chart in any of his known epistles (though admittedly he could have included one in either of his two lost Corinthians epistles). And we know he was not an amillennialist because he did not have a Dutch name.

    But what exegetical evidence do we have for Paul’s postmillennialism? Romans 11 is one of the key texts demonstrating Paul’s historical optimism.

    Paul writes in Rom 11:10–26:

    I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? And if the first piece of dough be holy, the lump is also; and if the root be holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, / He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

    Studies in Eschatology (4 CDs) Four lectures by Ken Gentry
    This four lecture series was given in Vancouver, Washington. It provides both a critique of dispensationalism, as well as positive studies of postmillennialism in the Psalms and Revelation. This provides helpful comparative insights into eschatological pessimism and optimism.
    See more study materials at: www.KennethGentry.com

    Here Paul is dealing particularly with the question of ethnic Jews in redemptive history’s new covenant phase. But the way he handles the matter leads him to assert global optimism regarding Christianity’s future — almost in passing as he simply assumes the gospel’s global conquest. Let us note the setting of his argument.

    In Romans 8 and 9 he vigorously asserts God’s absolute sovereignty. But this causes a question to arise: What about the Jews? If God is sovereign, how can we explain their rejecting Christ and falling away from God’s favor? Are they not “His people” (Rom 11:1, 2)? Were they not the adopted sons who possessed the promises of God (Rom 9:4)? Romans 9–11 answers that important question.

    Paul is clearly dealing with ethnic Jews when he raises the question for he writes: “I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin” (Rom 11:1). He defines “His people” by referring to Israel’s ethnic tribes (Rom 11:1), by citing Elijah’s experience (Rom 11:2), and by distinguishing them from the Gentiles (Rom 11:11–13, 25).

    As he engages the thorny issue, he asks two questions: Has God rejected his people (Rom 11:1)? And has Israel stumbled for the purpose of absolutely falling away (Rom 11:11)? In answering these questions in his context, he argues that God’s sovereignty does not fail because: (1) Even “at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace” (Rom 11:5; cp. 2–6) and God himself sovereignly hardens the rest (Rom 11:7–10). (2) God will bring the Jews back into God’s favor in the future and on an equal footing with the saved Gentiles (Rom 11:11–26). Thus, the current presence of a remnant shows his rejection is not total and the future hope of their fullness shows that his rejection is not final.

    Millennial Orientations

    The four basic millennial schools present distinctive approaches to Paul’s statement in Romans 11:25–26a: “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved.”

    The premillennialist and the dispensationalist see the statement that “all Israel will be saved” as promising a future national, geo-political restoration of Israel’s kingdom. Generally the amillennialist sees this as signifying that the Church fulfills Israel’s promises by becoming the true Israel. The postmillennialist sees here the promise of world conversion as finally including ethnic Israel herself.

    The postmillennial approach best fits the flow of Paul’s argument, however. In the second phase of his argument proving that God’s sovereignty does not fail, he explains that Israel did not stumble at Christ for the purpose that (Gk., hina) they might utterly and finally fall away (Rom 11:11). In introducing the problem he vigorously rejects any such prospect: “May it never be!” for “God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew” (Rom 11:1, 2). He also rejects this possibility immediately after posing the question: “May it never be!” (Rom 11:11). Rather God’s purpose in Israel’s current condition is to bring in Gentile salvation, with the final result that this will spark widespread Jewish conversions: “salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous” (Rom 11:11).

    Paul then states: “Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!” (Rom 11:12). We must understand that since Israel’s loss is almost total (only a remnant remains, Rom 11:5), her “fulfillment [Gk., pleroma]” must be commensurate with her loss, which means it must be virtually total. Hence, postmillennialists believe in future, massive conversions among the Jews, not only due to our general theological expectations regarding worldwide salvation, but also due to this particular exegetical evidence.

    Amillennial Objections

    Amillennialists dismiss this view for two contextual reasons: (1) This salvation of Israel is a “mystery” (Rom 11:25), which presents an unexpected resolution to the Jewish problem — that is, that the Church becomes Israel so that God fulfills Israel’s promises through her. (2) Paul uses the phrase kai houtos (“and thus”), which means “in this manner,” “in this way.” This phrase, so they argue, does not refer to temporal sequence tracing the falling away of the Jews, then the conversion of the Gentiles, followed finally by Israel’s salvation. Rather it refers to the unexpected manner by which God fulfills his promise: by making the Gentile Church the fulfillment of Israel’s hope.

    Postmillennialism can answer both objections. First, in that Paul emphasizes ethnic Israel in his opening question (Rom 11:1–2) and in that he plays Gentiles over against Israel (Rom 11:11–13, 25), the “mystery” involved is the remarkable, unanticipated method God uses: he plays Israel off the Gentiles. This involves the salvific wave motion of Israel falling away from God’s favor, Gentiles coming in, then Israel being drawn back in.

    Second, regarding “and thus”: though it is true that it often lacks sequential emphasis, this is not always the case. For instance, in 1 Corinthians 11:28 Paul writes: “But let a man examine himself, and so [same Greek phrase] let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.” Indeed, some major versions translate this usage temporally: “A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup” (NIV). “Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup” (NRSV). Temporal sequence seems clear in other texts, as well (Acts 17:33; 20:11; 1 Cor 14:25). This presents no problem to the postmillennial interpretation.

    Consequently, in Romans 11 Paul speaks of Christianity’s future glory: the Jewish failure will eventually bring “riches for the world” (Rom 11:12), resulting in “the reconciling of the world” (Rom 11:15), leading to “the fulness of the Gentiles” (Rom 11:25). All three references point to massive, worldwide conversions. All three underscore the postmillennial hope.
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    Thanks Icon, for this excellent defense of the post-mil position. I was taught that post-mil fell out of favor after World War I, because it was obvious that the world was not getting better and better.

    Although I am pre-mil up to now, I want to take a closer look at your post to make sure I understand the points you are making.

    Doggone. Just when I thought I had it all figured out, you come along and start messing with my mind.
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Tom

    I am in the same boat.I rejected this view before I re-examined scripture itself. If we want to be faithful to scripture I tell people to learn an accurate version of each view and weigh it out. I will offer you some more.

    http://postmillennialismtoday.com/2014/02/19/what-are-the-last-days/

    http://postmillennialismtoday.com/2014/02/14/the-new-creation-in-revelation/

    http://postmillennialismtoday.com/2014/02/28/3623/


    http://www.worldwithoutend.info/bbc/books/articles/demar-gary_pp_04.htm
     
  4. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    [​IMG]

    Couldn't get any farther than this. Don't want to. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Paul wrote this:

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    Some delight in remaining ignorant....He suggests we should not...:wavey:
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Moved to forum for theological discussion

    You're welcome
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Thanks Bob.....I am not sure where they should go sometimes:laugh:I do not stress over it .....apparently some do:wavey:
     
  8. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    So, given you feel free to adjudge the intellect of those who disagree with you, and as Paul's writing are decidedly and unequivocally premillennial in nature, how do you classify yourself, then?

    (It's a rhetorical question, but I'm sure you'll answer it anyway.)
     
    #8 thisnumbersdisconnected, Mar 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2014
  9. Iconoclast

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    Yes I will DCONN....just for you:thumbsup: It is not judging intellect as pointing out how some by refusing to look and consider remain ignorant, unaware, uninformed...

    Dconn make your case....interact with the articles, or not. You claiming you have it all figured out or it is so clear is one thing.Proving it is quite another.You have not really done much on the proving side.



    Although you know all....let me expand your intellectual understanding of this word...from several online dictionaries-

    ig·no·rant
    ˈignərənt/
    adjective
    adjective: ignorant

    1.
    lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
    "he was told constantly that he was ignorant and stupid"
    synonyms: uneducated, unknowledgeable, untaught, unschooled, untutored, untrained, illiterate, unlettered, unlearned, unread, uninformed, unenlightened, benighted; More

    : lacking knowledge or information


    ig•no•rant (ˈɪg nər ənt)

    adj.
    1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned.
    2. lacking special knowledge or information.
    3. uninformed; unaware.
    4. showing lack of knowledge or training.
     
  10. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    And yet Paul wrote:
    1 Thessalonians 4, NASB
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. ​
    Now, if you'd care to explain how he wrote this in a future perspective, I'd be happy to hear what you have to say. Surely you don't suggest the events herein had occurred between the writing of 1 Thessalonians in 52 AD, and the writing of Romans in 58 AD?

    And as to Gentry? "He shall have dominion" does not an eschatology make, particularly when he interprets Romans 11 as teaching that Israel is forsaken by God, that the Creator lied to Abraham. Ludicrous. Or perhaps you prefer a more obnoxious word, specifically the one you have chosen to define in your, uh ... tre-- ... dia-- ... "reasoning"? ... is that what that's supposed to be?
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    thisnumbersdisconnected

    hello Dconn...thanks for your reply...now we can interact and get somewhere:thumbs:





    Dconn...i was for years dispensational premill.This passage is lifted out to teach the premill view, usually followed quickly by 1thess 5:9

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    quickly followed by rev 3:10

    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    We are told that was the purpose for these verses...correct? you have read or seen these verses as I have used this very way.

    However...let's see what 1 thess 4 was actually given for-


    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,

    concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not,

    even as others which have no hope.

    paul is writing to comfort these saints concerning friends and family members who had died already.

    He is not warning them of a coming future day, thousands of years later about a premill rapture, 7yr tribulation, future antichrist breaking the covenant in the middle of the 70th week in a rebuilt temple. NO...not at all.
    he is speaking of loved ones who are asleep...what happens to them, will we see them????

    The passage is speaking of how all will be raised up.

    I now see this in relation to Jesus teaching where he says this takes place on the last day....

    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    When does this happen;

    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Dconn....this is simply what i now believe.I am still open to ideas on end times teaching....but I no longer have to force this into the premill idea...a last day rapture is indicated here.

    The teaching was ...do not sorrow as others.."who have no hope".

    it was not about escaping the wrath of a future tribulation in our day.

    No....i do not have to, because he is speaking of the last day ....the rapture is the last day....

    This article speaks to that issue...can you cite where you think he says this...I have that book on my laptop....give a page number if you can...

    Dconn...let me ask you a question where do you think the Covenant curses come upon the nation of Israel?

    DEUT 28:15-29- it starts this way;

    15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

    it goes to this;
    36 The Lord shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.

    37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the Lord shall lead thee.

    Then this..which did already happen in 70ad;
    49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

    50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

    51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

    52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

    53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

    and goes to this;
    63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

    64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

    65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

    66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

    67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.


    It looks quite scriptural to me Dconn...not ludicrous...Jesus warned that generation;

    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

    Looks very scriptural this way don't you think DCONN....what do you think?
     
    #11 Iconoclast, Mar 25, 2014
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  12. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    All well and good, through the end of that verse. Continuing on as he does ...
    ... does not negate premillennial teaching as you would have us believe -- which, I suspect, is precisely why you did not attempt to explain vv. 15-18 in relation to comfort for the grieving. It is clear that v. 15 transitions into not just the resurrection of the dead -- their loved ones who have "fallen asleep" in Christ -- but what will happen to the believers alive at the time of that resurrection, which is exactly what he is talking about in v. 16. Then, in v. 17, he discusses our fate, or the fate of whomever is alive at that time. Not only is this passage an assurance of our seeing our dead in Christ again, but that we will all be transmuted into our heavenly bodies and escorted into heaven.

    From the perspective of us in this space-time, that event is future. It is my belief that, if heaven could be placed in this space-time with us, there would be no one there but God and the angels. However, from the perspective of our death and instant transmutation into heaven -- "absent from the body, present with the Lord" -- it has already happened. Things that are impossible, are not, with God.

    Your following verses are totally unrelated to either these events, therefore they have no place in your discussion. It is post-Tribulationary in substance (vv. 28, 29, 39 that you quoted after this segment of your post) and therefore have nothing to do with the church, the dead in Christ, or our transmutation at the Rapture.
    There is no "forcing" -- it is obvious in a simple reading and in its context.
    it is about both. You do not have to discard the one to believe the other.
    No, the church is not appointed for wrath, as Paul points out in Ephesians 1:10. The church -- believers -- is delivered from the wrath of God, either in the temporal, individual world, the world as a whole, but certainly in an eternal sense. Wrath is defined as "vindictive punishment, even from all punishment in this life," as stated by John Gill, Spurgeon's predecessor by a century in London.

    There is no wrath mixed with any of His mercies or even His chastisements in this life. All punishment in the world to come, which will fall heavy on others, is not due to the faithful believer, as Christ has borne our sins, and has taken the Father's wrath upon Himself in our stead. We will not see the Tribulation. We will not see judgment of any sort, save that of the Bema Seat, where we will receive our great or little rewards, depending on what we have done with our "talent" in this life. I will not deal with the rest of your post, as my argument effectively cancels it out as relevant or germane.
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    thisnumbersdisconnected

    It does not teach it either Dconn.


    You ignore what Jesus taught in Jn 6...the last day.

    Agreed:thumbs:

    Dconn...you cannot ignore what Jesus taught in Jn 6.My view deals with the verses and people involved....it is the last day.....clearly. How can you seek to just dismiss it?

    In your response ..you assume a future tribulation period, that has already occured.


    No one says the church under goes God's wrath??

    i beg to differ DCONN....it is the exact issue.If the days of vengeance have happened to israel already...your speculation about all future events has no basis in scripture anywhere.


    35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

    36 For the Lord shall judge his people
    , and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;


    The question becomes this....Jesus said these things would happen to that generation that rejected Him and crucified Him. Not some future generation who has never seen or heard of Him.

    You cannot dismiss this question and deal fairly with the scripture
     
    #13 Iconoclast, Mar 25, 2014
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  14. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    So now what, we get into a back-and-forth like six-year-olds? "It does too!" "No it doesn't."

    No thanks. My post speaks for itself.
    Not at all. The phrase "last day" is used for several different ending events in the New Testament. But of course, rejecting Dispensationalism, you ignore that fact, so I will simply end here with that statement rather than riling you up and starting yet another argument that deteriorates into a six-year-olds' back-and-forth.
    And as I've said before, if you think Jesus has already returned -- and John's Revelation shows that He must do so at the end of the Tribulation -- you are terribly confused. The Tribulation has not already occurred. No argument one can make is rationally able to reach this conclusion.
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    You did not answer the question dconn:


    I beg to differ DCONN....it is the exact issue.If the days of vengeance have happened to israel already...your speculation about all future events has no basis in scripture anywhere.


    35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

    36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


    Yes...your posts do speak for themselves....they say I have no answer to this question,nevertheless I will cling blindly to my view no matter what:thumbs:


    .

    Jesus was not speaking of the last days...[plural]....but THE LAST DAY.

    Dconn....newsflash! ,,because you say so...does not make something an established fact:wavey:

    translation....you want to disparage any other idea...even when you cannot scriptural answer.....you seek to put down the discussion,then avoid commenting because you do not know what to say...Lk said...these be the days of vengeance.....you suggest they are yet future, even though Jesus said that generation was accountable...Mt 23

    I have never posted this Dconn,,,show a post where I said Jesus "returned" or retract this red herring.

    where do you think John says this?

    Some might think or say that Dconn...but you need to show it.So far you have not made your case at all.

    Lk wrote this...
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


    then it happened between 64-70 ad
     
  16. ~JM~

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    Thanks for the article Iconoclast. I'm not PostMil but see the value in gaining a proper understanding of other, orthodox Christian views of eschatology.

    j
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    I feel the same way as you do. It does not hurt to search out these other views. No one answers them...they try to evade the issues.
     
  18. ~JM~

    ~JM~
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    I'm Amil but see plenty of overlap between the two views.
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Actually, Amil, Postmil, and orthodox Preterism share a lot of 'overlap'. Add a dab of Historicist view and you've got a winner!
     
    #19 kyredneck, Apr 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2014
  20. ~JM~

    ~JM~
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    ...I would say I have a dab of Historicist. I'm currently blogging through Knollys' commentary on revelation. (see sig line for link)
     

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