Roman 11: Do the JEWS have a free ride to Salvation & are we bless if we bless them?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by liebeskind, Dec 26, 2004.

  1. liebeskind

    liebeskind
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    Most Christians are under impression that the Jews have a free ride to salvation based, and using Romans 11 as the tool of choice to verify this. This is not the truth, and Romans 11 states the contrary. Those who call themselves Jews but are NOT (Rev 2:3 & 3:3), have no chance for salvation without Eesho M’sheekha (Jesus Christ), and I’m sure we can all agree on that, because the Bible say one cannot be saved without him!

    Now let’s get to the POPULAR scriptures that are used to promote this lie and fear of speaking against “those who call themselves Jews but are not” (Rev 2:3 & 3:3).

    Genesis 12-1-3
    1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee :
    2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee , and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
    3 And I will bless them that bless thee , and curse him that curseth thee : and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    Now if anyone would look at the above, God stated that he wanted “thee” (Abraham) to get out of “thy” (Abraham) country and his father’s house. God stated that he would make “thee” (Abraham) a grate nation. God said that he would bless “thee” (Abraham) and make “HIS” name great. God said that would bless “them” (anyone other than Abraham), that bless “thee” (Abraham). God said that he would curse “them” (anyone other than Abraham), that curse “thee” (Abraham). Then God summed it up and said that “ALL” , again, “ALL” families of the earth will be blessed in “thee” (Abraham).

    Now in no way shape or form are Israel or the Jews mentioned in the above verses, the subject is ABRAHAM and nobody else and I’m sure that is seen. So tell me who started quoting Genesis 12:3 as to mean Israel or the Jews when it clearly does not. It’s not in Greek, so I think it is very clear that Abraham is the Subject of those whom will receive a BLESSING if they will bless and not curse him, ABRAHAM, not Israel or the Jews.

    I found it hard to believe that anyone could corrupt this verse to mean something other than what it states SO CLEARLY. Some have used the GAP theory to state that the Jews are still God’s chosen until Eesho M’sheekha returns to renew the earth or after some rapture (the rapture is not the issue folks). Bible the Bible is clear on that:

    Genesis 49:8-11
    8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
    9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up ?
    10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be .
    11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

    Now it is very clear in the Gospels that this was FULFILLED (also according to Daniel 9), when Eesho M’sheekha Rode into Sion on a Colt:

    Matthew 21:2
    2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me.

    Matthew 21:5
    5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion , Behold, thy King cometh unto thee , meek, and sitting upon an ass , and a colt the foal of an ass .

    John 12:13-16
    13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed [is] the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written ,
    15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt .
    16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him , and [that] they had done these things unto him.

    So says the scriptures all was FULFILLED, one does not have to look far to see that above in Genesis, it’s clear Hermeneutics!

    So please answer this question for me anyone; If Eesho M’sheekha Fulfilled Genesis 49:10, then what does Judah or those whom are claiming today to be from Judah, what role do they play. Nothing! If there is a role that I am not aware of that is in the Bible, AFTER the Sceptre was given to Eesho, please show me. Other than that, there is nothing to fear and they don’t HOLD YOUR BLESSINGS IN THEIR HANDS!

    So we clearly see above that one myth in Genesis 12 has been cleared and is only referring to Abraham, and that the Jews hold no laws or ordinances After Eesho M’sheekha Rode in on his colt according to Genesis 49 and the Gospels! So what’s next? I forgot about Roman 11.

    Now this is the one that Charismatics, Baptist, Catholics etc. like to use for their reasoning, and I have sat back and watched it work on those that do not read, because at face value it looks like the Jews have a free ride to Salvation. So let’s look at Romans 11.

    Romans 11 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    Verse one is clear that Paul was not a Jew (Judah), but a Benjamite. Paul was a citizen of Judah and that makes him a Judean or Jew.

    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    So the scriptures said that God reserved a Remnant according to Grace, and at that Present time (and no other, because Paul was not speaking of the future, but the past and present tense).

    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

    Paul states that the elect has achieve what the others did not and the others are blinded etc..

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    Paul is basically telling the gentiles not to be High minded in the since that they should want the Jews destroyed for their historical disobedience.

    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    Now did you see that? Paul stated that they will only be saved if THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBLIEF! SO IF THEY DON’T BELIEVE THEN THEY DON’T GET SAVED. Paul explains that they can be grafted back in if they BELIEVE! NOWHERE in th above verse do you see anything stating that they will be grafted back in without BELIEVING in Eesho M’sheekha! Note that it also says ISRAEL. Can anyone show in the bible WHERE God changed the name ISRAEL to JEW?

    Now IF everyone read Genesis 49:3, IT Clearly STATES that ISRAEL should follow JUDAH until Eesho M’sheekha comes RIDING on a COLT’S ass, which did happen.

    So I need to know what these Jews today have. They do not have God or G-d as they say, without Eesho M'sheekha. And if they do not why do everyone fall into the trapped of their lies. What is it that you fear, because it ain't GOD, it ain't Eesho. Is it you tax exemption from being a church? Is it the promise of power? Is it the promise of Money? Why them? Because according to the bible they are insignificant to my way of life, THEY GET NO SPECIAL TREATMENT. Please show me where I'm wrong, and admit if it is right.

    I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A LIE and EVERY Christian should as well.

    I think Christians should spend more time with the Jews explaining to them that they are not Chosen and and bring them to Eesho just like they do anyone on the streets. They should not have any special way of Coming to Eesho. You know it is a shame that Muslims beleived that Eesho was the M'sheekah, but the Jews don't, and you want to point fingers at Muslims.

    If there is any rebuttal to this based on the bible and other historical resources please provide them in your rebuttal. And before it comes up I, would like for you to provide rebuttals to my post when you label me as Antisemitic. It will help to know why I'm called that, and I hope it is because I told a lie! Thanks

    Ron
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    There is no salvation for anybody outside of Jesus Christ. Who are these "Christians" whom you claim to be the majority of Christian thought.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. liebeskind

    liebeskind
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    Joseph, (and Joseph only)

    You mean to tell me you have not heard that the Jews will be saved when Eesho M'sheekha returns? Why you say?, They say because they will believe when they see him and be instantly converted so they will be saved. But until then they can contiue in "unbelief"! If one is reading what I'm reading, when Eesho returns he's sealing and burning at the same time, know 7 years (not to get off topic)!

    Ron
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I have heard the theory before, and indeed, if it is God's will, they will be saved. However, I don't think the theory you have presented as the majority of Christians is really representative of what the majority of Christians believe.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. liebeskind

    liebeskind
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    Joseph,

    Please don't sound like the Charismaitc with the revelation knowledhe stuff. God's will, God's will is that they believe in his son TOTALLY! And if not they will burn. The bible is his will Joseph, and you nor anyone else can find it else where. His will is written, and it is clear for those who call themselves jews and are not.

    Ron
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

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    God is sovereign and his will is not superceded by the will of man.

    I am in no way, Charasmatic.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. steaver

    steaver
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    I was thinking the same thing when I read the opening line. I don't know any Christian churches around my area that believe this or teach it.

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
  8. don 3426

    don 3426
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    I have also heard that theory but i have never heard a christian say they believe thats true. Christians should know that isnt true through the what the Lord said.
     
  9. Gina B

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    Eesho M’sheekha ...upon looking this up I find that this name, and many of the concepts Ron promotes, appear to come from people such as this:
    http://essenes.net/disc.htm
    On this word supposably being the name of Christ (and when they use this name they are NOT speaking of the Christ as described in the Bible) it says...
    Who is "Eesho M’sheekha" to you Ron?
    Gina
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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  11. Gina B

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    Interesting.
    I'd love to hear Ron's testimony.
    I don't speak Aramaic, and it's not the language of the Bible we read here in America.
    Why would anyone want to use a name for Christ that is apparently mostly associated with followers of the Quaran? That doesn't make sense to me. He may state that that isn't why he uses it, that's about as smart as replacing God with Allah in Sunday school...
    Gina
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Apparently, I made the mistake of thinking the same thing as well, and he very harshly corrected me about this issue:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/18/2594/2.html?

    Apparently, there is some controversy as to the origins of this word, and when I did an internet search of the word, I came up with the websites that disagreed with his interpretation and was very harshly rebuked for it.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Many dispensationalists at one time promoted two lines of salvation; one for the Jews and another for the believers.
     
  14. DHK

    DHK
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    My only conclusion from your answer to Joseph is that you Ron, must not be born again, neither a Christian, because you are not a Jew yourself. You have just stated that God's will is for the Jews. That puts you out in the cold, according to your own theology.
    I thank God that I am a blood bought Christian, saved by the blood of the Lamb, once sacrificed for the sins of the world.
    DHK
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Hebrew - is likely to be far older than Aramaic since the only way Aramaic "could" be older is to be the "original language before the Tower of Babel".

    In the mean time - Ron does seem to have a lot of "personal attack snippets" to be removed by those who quote him. That surely is not a sign of well reasoned scholarship.

    Ron is also incorrect when he rejects the Bible use of the Term Jew - (which is NOT its way of talking about Russians) and the fact that this does not appear until the loss of the Northern Kingdom to Syria.

    However - as much as I don't like Ron's methods -- I do agree that modern Jews are converts and peoples from many nations and that they have to be saved the same way as anybody else and that they are not going to be "All converted" at the 2nd coming.

    Ron is confusing the idea of some Evangelicals that there will be 144,000 jews during the time of the tribulation that are all converted (something that these people place BEFORE the visible 2nd coming -- return of Christ) as well as the claim that some evangelicals make from Rom 11 thinking that it means all the jews will get saved before the return of Christ.

    I don't know of any group that says that AT Christ's second coming all the Jews become Christians.

    However I certainly DO believe that AT the 2nd coming of Christ ALL the wicked all the lost become "believers" in the fact that they have been wrong and Christ is the true Son of God. However they "remain" lost.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Eric B

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    "Isa" in Arabic I have heard really comes from "Esau", which is what the Jews in Muhammad's time were calling Jesus. This "Eesho" did look to me like it may be related to Isa, but then, if you change the first E to I, then it is "Iesho", which is close to the Greek version of "yeshua". So who knows...
     
  17. BobRyan

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    I thought His name in Hebrew would be Joshua.

    And Messiah is the closest thing to His title in Hebrew corresponding to Christ in Greek.

    The Jews would have been living for centuries under the Greek empire and unless they were speaking Persian during the time of the Persian and Babylonian empires -- they would continue with Greek and Hebrew as the two primary languages at the time of Christ.

    What was causing them to speak the language of the Syrians during the time of the Greek and Roman empire? Even the Romans were still using Greek on documents outside of Rome.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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