Roman Catholicism , cult or not? Part II

And exactly how are you to get this comunication to her? Via the US air mail perhaps?

The Bible stricty forbids anyone to try to contact the dead. And only God is able to hear prayers anyway.

 

More poetry for our poetry lovers everywhere:

This from Alphonsus de Liguori's "Glories of Mary": [He was a Catholic bishop in the 18th century and a canonized saint]. Published in 1750, it has been the most celebrated Marian devotional work in the Catholic Church with over 800 editions in many languages.

"With reason does an ancient writer call her [Mary] "the only hope of sinners", for by her help alone can we hope for the remission of sins. (pg 83) Isa. 43:8-11, Acts 4:12

”He fails and is lost who has not recourse to Mary.” (pg 94).

”Shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary?” (pg 169)

"At the command of Mary all obey - even God." St. Bernardine [Catholic canonized saint] fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands...Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only by grace. (Pg 180-82)

"There is no doubt, (St. Bernardine adds) that Jesus Christ is the only mediator of justice between men and God; [the bad, harsh one] but because men acknowledge and fear the divine Majesty, which is in him as God, for this reason it was necessary to assign us another advocate, [don't miss that] to whom we might have recourse with less fear and more confidence, [more confidence?!] and this advocate is Mary, than whom we cannot find one more powerful with his divine majesty, or one more merciful [Rom. 9:15] towards ourselves...A mediator, then was needed with the [mean] mediator himself." (Pg. 195-96)

"Be comforted then, O you who fear," will I [also] say with St. Thomas of Villanova [another lost Catholic saint]: "breath freely and take courage, O wretched sinners; this great Virgin, who is the mother of your God and judge, [again, the mean one] is also the advocate of the whole human race; fit for this office, for she can do what she wills with God; most wise, for she knows all the ways of appeasing him; universal, for she welcomes all, and refuses to defend no one." (Pg. 198). So much for Luke 13:2-5 and John 12:48.

St. Anselm, to increase our confidence, adds, that "when we have recourse to this divine Mother, only we may be sure of her protection, but that often we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to Mary and call on her holy name [Acts 4:12; Rom. 10:13] , than we should if we call on the name of Jesus our Saviour," and the reason he gives for it is, "that to Jesus as a judge it belongs to punish; BUT MERCY ALONE BELONGS TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN as a patroness." (Pg. 136-37) Isa. 55:1-9; PS. 31, Rom. 9:15.

If God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him. (Pg. 124). Ex. 34:5-7.

One popular prayer in Mary's honor is the Hail Holy Queen , which is known in Latin as the Salve Regina . It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled The Glories of Mary which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority).

Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes."

**********************************************

Ah, of course he was just speaking metaphorically. Wasn't he?

 

Livingstone,

1) So, using your logic are you willing to say that you have no buisiness saying the the Jehovahs Witnesses or Branch Davidians or Mormons are cultic because after all...how can you know more about those groups than the practicing members of those groups?

2) I was indeed a practicing member of the Catholic Church until the day of my new birth in my mid 20's. I was a Goddess worshipper, idolator, a practitioner of pagansm, a practitioner of a false christian religion, and I had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ until an evangelical shared it with me in my early 20's.

Mike

 

Living Stone,

There are millions upon millions of standard run of the mill evangelicals, pentecostals, charismatics and protestants who are exceedingly more qualified to interpret the scriptures than the Hierarchy or Teaching Magesterium of the Catholic Church.

So is Goddess Worship.

Both have their origin in the pit of hell.

We are told in the scriptures...written in the 1st century...that already savage wolves and false teachers were already infiltrating the church.

You just verified those scriptures as being true.

The scriptures do not support purgatory.

Mike

 

From DEVELOPMENT OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE, Cardinal Newman, page 359. "Incense, lamps, candles, votive offerings, holy water, vestments, images, are all of pagan origin."

POST VATICAN II

Richard McBrien, Notre Dame theologian, "The conversion of Constantine also allowed the Church to be less defensive about pagan culture, to learn from it and be enriched by it."

From THE GREAT MYSTERIES, Andrew Greeley, page 119, "As part of the exuberant enthusiasm of the early Christians, Mary replaced the mother goddesses of the pagan world."

 

All human traditions found in RC are not more than Paganism, Idolatry, Sorcery, Strawmen theory, beautified with theology to become Christianized.


God says " Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plague" Rev 18:4

The true believers fighting against RC will be blessed.

 

Claudia,

You posted...

(bolding mine)

Strike 1

Strike 2

Strike 3

Reminds me of this scripture...

Mike

 

This is false. It is something that man cannot do. Only God can speak without error about ALL things. You are badly deceived.
"Yea let God be true, but every man a liar." (Rom.3:4)
DHK

 

The miracle of God. Our prayers to eachother are always apparent to him. If I ask you to pray for me, he already knows that, but I am not forbidden to do that. The body of Christ is one, and those who have gone before us righteously are amongst the "great cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12) and we know that some if not all of them are able to present our prayers to god (Rev 5:8).

We're not trying to get an answer from them. We're merely asking them to pray for us.

However they are not dead, either. The OT prohibitions were well before any awareness of the "living" or the sure knowledge of the resurrection. But again, we're not talking to them as we would to God. Only asking them to pray for us, and this God can make them aware of, allowing them to fulfill their role as part of the Body of Christ.

A) That someone is canonized a saint does not mean everything they speak is infallible, or the teaching of the church.
B) Flowery language.
C) This is not heretical when understood properly.
D) I agree that to modern ears especially these can seem exaggerated, but then you read their prayers to Jesus and see that it is on par.
E) Still not a strictly RC practice.

The difference is you're misrepresenting doctrine and beliefs which I personally practice.

And you were probably poorly catechized too.

Show me that in scripture.

Goddess worship is older than Christianity, and has no place in it, Catholic or otherwise. You're ignorant and I'm through with this discussion.

I swear before God that I do not worship Mary, and that neither the Catholic Church nor the Orthodox churches teach that we should worship Mary.

End of discussion.

That's right. Gnostics. Heretics. Those who distorted the Gospel message and wrote spurious gospels.

The Church, however, is the only reason you even have 27 books in your NT. If she's false, so is your canon.

Yes, they do.

You forgot "wedding rings" and "the notion of God" and the idea of a "savior" and "the hope of an afterlife" and "the idea of punishement of sinners". All of these can be found in pagan religions.

Vandles, Lamps, Incense, Holy water, Vestments - all of these are also found in the God given religion of the Jews. You're mis-quoteing Newman.

No serious Catholic takes Fr. Richard McBrien seriously. He is one of the worst dissident theologians out there.

However, there is some truth to the fact that the early church took what was good in pagan religions and "baptized it". Wedding rings are an example. The date for the feast of the birth of Christ is another.

Paul, speaking to the "pious" pagans at the areopagus takes one of their gods (or rather, their "unknown god") and then turns around and 'baptizes' him, making him the Father and then using this god to explain God to them. It is okay - if one is careful - to take pagan imagry and incorperate it into the Christian life giving it a proper meaning. Wedding bands are a beautiful sign. They are pagan in origen, but christianized and agreeable to all but the staunchest of zealot. Are you against wedding bands?

And the Church has met people where they were and then helped them to come to a more full understanding of God and Christ.

Then god is divinely guiding me when I say:
My daughter was born in Olathe, KS.

That every man is a liar does NOT mean that everyman tells nothing but lies, or that no man can ever state the truth.

 

Living stone...

I said...

And you said...

Ha ha!

Poorly Catechized....through 8 years of Catholic schooling, religion class, catechism class, altar boy, CCD classes, etc etc.

Poorly catechised....by 8 years of being taught by the parish nuns and priests who were assigned by the "innerant" Hieararchy to teach us correctly how to be "good catholics". (Thank God I wasnt molested by any of those priests.)

No. I was a goddess worshipper and idolator and practitioner paganism and false religion practitioner because I was doing and believing precisely as I was taught, and the same with millions of other Catholics.

I have no doubt you want this discussion to end...as quickly as possible. But thank God seeds have been planted, and I have all confidence that in time those seeds will come to fruition and cause you to finally *see* with eyes that see and *hear* with ears that hear.

Oh brother.

Here comes that one again. The Catholic Church, actually bragging that they gave us Gods scriptures...in spite of the fact that all of the books we know now as the new testament were inscripturated and considered to be God inspired and inerrant scripture 300 or so years before Constantine invented the paganized brand of supposed christianity known as the Catholic Church.

There is absolutly no limit to how low the Catholic Church will go in its arrogance.

I hope with all my heart that that is true.

They teach it, they practice it, they promote it, they cultivate it, they defend it, they propagate it.

If that means you are leaving these discussions I can assure you that I will pray for you by name, and I wish Gods blessings on you. So many of those blessings however are contingent upon our repenting of the evil so as to enter the pathway of truth. What Spiritual rewards await us when we come to our senses and do just that.

God bless,

Mike

 

And exactly how are you to get this comunication to her? Via the US air mail perhaps?

The Bible stricty forbids anyone to try to contact the dead. And only God is able to hear prayers anyway. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I didn't say I was defending the practice; just correcting the erroneous assumption in the previous post.

 

Yes, I see it all the time.

Either you were not being taught that and misunderstood/stand, or your parish was heretical.

No. I was agnostic before I converted. I have 100% asurity in the Church christ founded on the Apostles - as much assurity as I have in the Canon of Scripture.

SOME of the books received immediate acclaim. The four Gospels, for instance, and most of Paul's letters. Some people had doubts upon like Revelation or Hebrews. The bible didn't just form itself. God used the Church to establish the canon. Without the church, you'd not know what books constitute the NT. Popular acclaim doesn't mean inspired, however, biblically speaking.

Biblically speaking, how do you know Hebrews is inspired?

1) Nor you in your ignorance
2) Plus, again, not strictly a RC issue.

"Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God. . . . Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2113, cf. 2110–2112, 2114).

I will do the same.

Yet God can still bless you.

Find me in heaven, and let's have a lark and a coffee.

 

Roman Catholic is like a General Hospital with the most paganism.

If we study about it based on the Bible teachings, we can know about the most of the paganism from the following practices and history:

The most of the true believers reject the followings:


- Salvation by Grace + Works
- Salvation by baptism
- Idol making for Mary or Joseph or Jesus
- Idol worshipping for those statues
- Immaculate Conception
- Perpetual Virginity of Mary
- Assumption : Ascension of Mary
- Theotokos : calling Mary Mother of God, meaning God is the Son of Mary.
- Mary as Mother of Church
- Queen of Heaven
- Clergy system with hierarchy
- Compulsory Celibacy
- Papacy
- Papal infallibility
- Whorish Tradition of so-called holy tradition
- Infant Baptism
- No Salvation outside Roman Catholic Church
- Purgatory
- Limbo
- Mass which is ever asking forgiveness of the sins without bringing the Gospel that such sins were already forgiven at the Cross.
- Transubstantiation ( Magic performance by Catholic Priests)
- Confession to priests
- Extreme unction, Extreme Unction after death
- Prayer to the dead
- Prayer for the dead
- Prayer to Mary
- Pray with Rosario
- all the signs of pagan origin such as ankh cross, mark of IHS, threefold hats for the pope, etc.
- Chemarim costumes ( Black costumes used for Idol worshipping priests)
- Crusade
- Inquisition
- Indulgence
- Proxy wars


If you know well about what are the fundamental problems with those General Hospital diseases, then you are well grown up in the Lord.

 

Yes, they do.</font>[/QUOTE]While I do not agree with the interpretation presented, and am not among those who would consider the deuterocanonicals inspired, the arguments presented here are very well thought out.

 

That's SHOTGUN APOLOGETICS - KNOCK IT OFF!

"Gee, If i list 50 points I disagree with, each one worth pages of text to discuss, that'll shut them up and make it look like I win"

Stop. It's immature and kills any discussion.

You want to discuss them, then post one or two this week, let them be discussed thorougly, and then move on.

 

Some Apocrypha could be a faithful record of human writing even though it lacks the Biblical inspiration. Biblical Inspiration is far, far higher than any exegies or commentaries or translation.
Some AP doesn't contradict Bible but gives additional information.
Problem is when it contradicts Bible.
I would not mind if AP are used as a reference only when it doesn't contradict Bible.
I think this thread ends soon. Anyway hope everyone well.

 

That's SHOTGUN APOLOGETICS - KNOCK IT OFF!

"Gee, If i list 50 points I disagree with, each one worth pages of text to discuss, that'll shut them up and make it look like I win"

Stop. It's immature and kills any discussion.

You want to discuss them, then post one or two this week, let them be discussed thorougly, and then move on. </font>[/QUOTE]Although you have been badly defeated in your "shotgun apologetics" we will give you another chance. We will close this thread, since it is already 26 pages long. And posters can start threads on individual Catholic doctrines, most of which are indefensible with Scripture.
DHK