Romans 1-8 & 9-11

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Greektim, Feb 13, 2014.

  1. Greektim

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    How does 9-11 (a battleground passage for eschatology and soteriology) fit with Paul's argument from 1-8?

    Notice, Paul assumes it does flow. He gives no discourse marker that he is diving into a different topic with no relationship to the previous context.

    So what is the overall theme of 1-8?

    What is the theme of 9-11?

    And how does it related to 9-11?

    Is there coherence between your assertions?

    PS-many scholars now are seeing 9-11 not only related smoothly w/ 1-8, but they are even moving toward the view that 9-11 is the climax of the book!!!
     
  2. percho

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    How about this GT? Critique.

    Methinks

    To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1:7

    Those addressed, called to be saints are different from his brethren in the flesh in 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    but goes on to show the relationship between the two.

    Now we know from those in 1:7 are those of 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Now we also know to have the Spirit is by gift, from the Jews first and from the Greeks the following is taking place; Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (the Greeks) A15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; (us, Jews). All are not presently being given the Holy Spirit.
    Not all the Jews and not all the Gentiles, Greeks.

    The big questions, I guess, are: Do we get to choose to be given the Spirit or does God choose to whom he will give the Spirit?

    We know there is a, firstfruits of the Spirit. Is the firstfruits of the Spirit relative to the feast of firstfruits?

    Jesus the prophet said: John 7:37-39 Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Can just anyone at this time come and drink? Or was Jesus prophetically speaking concerning the first part of verse 37 In the last day, that great day of the feast,

    Back to Romans

    11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Can just anyone at this time drink?

    11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Will they be able to drink at that time? Can any man say, "the Lord he is Christ, except he have the Holy Spirit?"

    What about the residue of mankind? When can he drink?

    Again Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (the feast of firstfruits)

    15:16 After this I will return, (What is blown at the return of Jesus? will that be the feast of trumpets?) and will build again the tabernacle (Is there a feast associated with tabernacles that has a holy convocation at the beginning?) of David, ( Could David be all Israel?) which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

    15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, (Could this take place on that last the great day of the feast of John 7?) and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


    15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    Does God know what God is doing?
     
  3. Greektim

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    Can you summarize in a few sentences the relationship of 9-11 w/ 1-8? I did not follow this post so well.
     
  4. JonC

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    I had always read 1-8 as presenting the gospel and expounding on the Church as the “seed of Abraham” and God’s elect. 9-11 then tackles the issue of continuity with the Old Testament. Has the Church replaced Israel? Are God’s promises to Israel void? The issue is God’s faithfulness.

    The way that I view these sections as being related is that the first (1-8) is a presentation of the gospel while the latter (9-11) is a defense of the gospel as it relates to God’s faithfulness. Chapters 9-11 flows with the previous chapters, and I believe are necessary for Paul’s argument. If both Jew and Gentile are under sin, if the blessings of God are applicable to both, then what becomes of the promises God made of Israel?

    Anyway, that is how I have been reading the text . I look forward to taking another look at this epistle.
     
  5. Greektim

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    Disappointed a discussion has not ensued.

    JonC, some argue that Paul's thoughts throughout 1-11 are the faithfulness/righteousness of God. Not that you are incorrect about 1-8, but I think it is too narrow. If Romans is occasional, then what purpose or to what end is he presenting the Gospel? Was it to answer a bigger question about God's faithfulness/righteousness?

    But what I appreciate about your thought is you said 9-11 is "a defense of the gospel". If that is the case, then doesn't ch. 9 have to be interpreted as referring to individual election? I know if that is the case, that it will teach some unpopular things, but it fits better with the flow of thought throughout Romans.

    Thanks for your contribution, even if we end up disagreeing.
     
  6. JonC

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    [FONT=&quot]I think you are right, and perhaps the faithfulness/righteousness of God is too narrow to summarize the chapters.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I do think that Roman 9 refers to individual election. If so, then this is a difficult concept for the Jewish thought in that they held to a national election – a covenantal relationship. 9:6-12 seems to deny anything but individual election. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]This would also include another unpopular issue – Jews did not believe that they obtained “salvation” because they obeyed the Law. They believed that they were God’s people and claimed this status by birth right through a covenantal relationship.

    [/FONT]
     
    #6 JonC, Feb 14, 2014
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  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Knowing where you and other Calvinist believers stand, why would anyone want to enter into another discussion where our views will be called stupid, unbiblical, or heretical? The evidence we have for our views has been put before you many, many times on this board, and I'm sure elsewhere as well. You reject it. You will not hear it. You will not even prayerfully consider it.

    Tell me why anyone would want to argue with a brick wall? :BangHead:
     
  8. percho

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    Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    Are these people the same people as to whom the book is written?

    Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 1:6,7

    Well of course they are not.

    Those address are those of chapters 1-8 and are called the firstfruits of the Spirit.

    In chapter 9 Paul address his brethren according to the flesh.

    His brethren at present are not being elected according to grace the only way anyone from the first man Adam to the last man can come to God. Jesus himself, comparing Lev, 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
    had to be accepted of God. Have you ever noticed in all the passages where it is said this in my beloved Son in in the context of post resurrection? At his baptism it is not said before Jesus went into the water but after he came out representing after resurrection. On the mount, a vision of Jesus coming in the glory of his kingdom. post resurrection.
    Jesus was accepted for us by grace through the faith.
    Jesus was the Son of God that was to willingly to give his life, die, having only the promise of God which wasn't eternal life but the hope of eternal life, which is the faithfulness of God. Christ became the faith when he willingly gave his life and was given the promised hope. Jesus became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not before seen.
    Jesus was the heir and now is the inheritor. Because he has inherited we can now become heirs. Election is of God and included even his Son Jesus.

    Beginning in chapter 9 of Romans Paul shows where those being called of God presently are being elected through Christ. James calls them; Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    In other words will be other fruit harvested later of his creatures. As in 11:25
    All Israel shall be saved. Paul's brethren in the flesh.

    I think if we will let God take care of all this saving business instead of trying to save ourselves by doing or believing something we will be better off.

    Maybe we should just love one another for; Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:10

    The whole of man.

    PLease correct me where you believe me to be in error.
     
    #8 percho, Feb 14, 2014
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  9. Greektim

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    Not sure... can you summarize in a few sentences the relationships between 1-8 and 9-11?
     
  10. Greektim

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    First, I don't think I have called your views that... ever.

    Second, I am actually not sure that you have addressed this. I brought it up in the other thread, but you didn't address it. So here is your chance. I like to think I can handle reasoned arguments. Put me to the test as I challenge you to the logic of Romans. After all, I was willing to help Quantumfaith find an article to go against Schreiner's on Rom. 9. It would be nice to have a discussion that is text driven rather than theology driven.
     
  11. Winman

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    Skandelon has repeatedly attempted to discuss Romans 9-11, but in the end he always gets jerked around. Calvinists refuse to answer good questions and play games. I doubt you would treat him any better than any other Calvinist has so far.

    I see Romans 9-11 as Paul showing why the gospel has been taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. The early church originated in Jerusalem, but soon the Gentiles took over and spread the gospel. This is what Paul is describing in Romans 9;

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
    33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    The Jews would not hear the preaching of faith, they sought righteousness through the works of the law.

    Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
    26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
    27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

    Paul tried to preach to the Jews, but they would not listen, they stopped their ears and closed their eyes lest they should see, hear, understand, and be converted and healed. It was not that God passed them by as Calvinism teaches.

    When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, once again the gospel will go to the Jews and many will be saved. This is Romans 11;

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    I am no expert on Romans, but this is the basic idea of Romans 9-11.
     
  12. Greektim

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    Glad we have so much trust and faith amongst the brethren here. Sheesh.
     
  13. Winman

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    #13 Winman, Feb 14, 2014
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  14. Greektim

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  15. Winman

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    I don't pretend to be nice, not my style. But Skandelon actually thinks if he acts like a gentleman, that you Calvinists will respond in like manner. He has come away with a bloody nose so often that I started making fun of him myself.

    [​IMG]

    He'll probably come on here and actually try to have a civil debate with you, and you will pull the ball out from him.

    Watch and see.
     
  16. kyredneck

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    I know this is not what the OP is looking for (seriously doubt I could provide that), but this is something that's stood out to me from the book of Romans, so I finally sat down and put it together; and that's how Paul touches on many facets of God in the book:

    Romans 1:
    1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,
    10 making request, if by any means now at length I may be prospered by the will of God to come unto you.
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
    23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
    25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

    Romans 2:
    2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.
    3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
    4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
    5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.

    Romans 3:
    2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God.
    3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God?
    5 But if our righteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)
    7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
    21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
    23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
    25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;

    Romans 4:
    20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God,

    Romans 5:
    1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
    5 and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
    15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.

    Romans 6:
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 7:
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Romans 8:
    7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
    9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
    16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
    21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
    27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
    34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
    39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 9:
    4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
    11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
    26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.

    Romans 11:
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
    22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!
     
  17. kyredneck

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    Romans 12:
    1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.
    2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
    19 Avenge not yourselves, beloved, but give place unto the wrath of God: for it is written, Vengeance belongeth unto me; I will recompense, saith the Lord.

    Romans 13:
    1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
    2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
    4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

    Romans 14:
    17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
    20 Overthrow not for meat`s sake the work of God. All things indeed are clean; howbeit it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

    Romans 15:
    5 Now the God of patience and of comfort grant you to be of the same mind one with another according to Christ Jesus:
    7 Wherefore receive ye one another, even as Christ also received you, to the glory of God.
    8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,
    13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, in the power of the Holy Spirit.
    16 that I should be a minister of Christ Jesus unto the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be made acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
    32 that I may come unto you in joy through the will of God, and together with you find rest.
    33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

    Romans 16:
    20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
    26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:
     
  18. Revmitchell

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    For the record I have never seen greetim make any such references.
     
  19. JamesL

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    Me thinks the first error is thinking there is "a theme" of chapters 1-8, and then assuming that 9-11 flows from this one theme. You're right that ch9 flows from chapter 8, but that doesn't mean 1-8 follow one theme. The thematic division would be 1-4, then 5-11.

    As for discourse marker, it is in 5:1
     
  20. Greektim

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    For a general division of Romans, yes I'd agree. But Romans is occasional. What is the issue he is addressing.

    I'm not sure what discourse marker you are seeing in 5:1. "Therefore"? That connects ch. 5 w/ the previous context. In other words, there is not a marker that says, "Alright, now let's talk about something else." Like you see in 1 Corinthians 7:1, "Now concerning the matters about which you wrote..." 1 Corinthians is notorious for its strange divisions and lack of unity. But Romans scholars all agree that there is a unity in Romans. What that major theme which ties it all up is probably the faithfulness of God.
     

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