Romans 1 and reprobation

So sorry you don't approve of the accoutrements of the boat, but it floats just fine for me.

 

OH I read posts. Why do you feel the need to be a smart alek? Do you just get upset because others see things differently than you?

 

That's just James! He can't help himself. It's ordained. :laugh::laugh:

 

Actually, James did a great job of crushing Skandelon's kumbaya arguements.

 

Thanks, guys! The discussion is much easier to follow.

...Bob

 

Dont know about you Bob, but I'm CRUSHED.

 

So were the Denver Broncos in Super Bowl XII versus the Dallas Cowboys 27-10!! Get it? Crushed? Denver's defense was named the "Orange Crush" because of their orange colored home uniforms. Get it now? Oh brother....but, I digress!!

To steal a line from you, Brother!!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

BTW, did you hear what G.W.B. said the day Obama was sworn in?

He said, "I'm Bushed........oh brother

 

Jarthur, I understand what you are saying, I really do. You are saying that Paul is addressing the condition of all mankind, both Jews and Gentiles...both those who have had the divine revelation (jews) and those who have been left to only creation (Gentiles). I get that. And I agree with it. That is what I've been trying to say. I think we have been talking past each other.

My point was, that even before the gospel was sent there were people (like Abraham) who did come to faith in God. He was a sinner. He wasn't righteous according to the law. He fell short. But he did believe and it was credited to him as righteousness. Likewise, there was Job, Rahab, and Enoch etc as examples, who feared and worshipped God without having ever heard the gospel. They too were all sinners. They all fell short. However, God acknowledges their faith and credits them with righteousness. As Paul says, "In his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith..."

So, while I agree that Paul was teaching that all mankind were sinful, I was merely pointing out that not all had rebelled to the degree of becoming hardened. Now, most Calvinists would argue that the reason they didn't was because of God's electing and effectually calling them otherwise they too would have had the same fate as these reprobates, but you seem to be saying that even the elect of God are being described when Paul says,

"they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Surely the elect, like Abraham, "gave thanks to God" didn't they? These folks NEVER gave thanks, so clearly Paul is not meaning them. He is telling what all mankind, even Abraham, would have become had God not intervened. Surely you agree with this, don't you?

I said we are saved from God's wrath and you disagreed with me? Really?

You can't agree for being so disagreeable Aaron. Sin is something we do. If you lie to someone, the lie doesn't come and get you, it is not a person or a being with any power, it is just something you've done. God is the person who executes judgement and wrath thus it is Him and His wrath we are being saved from...but I'll let you argue with Paul about that:

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" -Paul

Now, who is taking "short cuts?"

 

While we are saved from the wrath of God that is not what believers seek after. I don't desire to be free of the consequences of my sin I want to free from sin. Believers don't come to Christ to receive a release from the wrath of God they come to Christ to rest from all thier work to please God. The motive of the believer isn't to get a free pass from Hell it is to be freed from the power and performance of sin. I rejoice that the wrath of God isn't on me when I know it ought to be but my motive for coming to Christ, at the first and daily, is to be freed from the power of sin.

 

1) yes and no. The beginning of the passage is speaking of all men. His wrath is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men. However He does not give all men up. Some he saves

2) yes. There certainly are greater and lessor levels of sinners and sins. John 19:11

3) If you mean before salvation no. If you mean after salvation yes. 2Peter 1:3-8

4) As a way of life yes without a doubt.

 

Ron, are you freed from the power of sin? The motive of one who comes to Christ should be both, a "pass from hell" and the desire to be pleasing to the God we both worship.

 

Ron that was not my experience. I wanted to be free from the present consequences of my sin as well as the future consequences. I came because I feared hell, not because I hated sin or loved God. I loved sin even while turning to God, but I did not love what it brought me. I did not come because I wanted to be free from sin itself, just its wages here and later. After salvation I now want to be free from my sin, but not before.

 

I don't believe that James is saying that in light of what the Lord said. Also if you break one law you ARE NOT guilty of breaking all the laws. The scripture doesn't say that. A theif is not guilty murderer. A liar is not guilty of homosexuality. You miss-understand what James is saying. James is saying that the law is only complete when kept completely. If you fail in only one area you are guilty of breking the law. It is like a window. No one ever broke part of of window even though there are parts unbroken. A window is only functioning as a window when it is unbroken. The same with the law. There are greater and lessor sinners in the eyes of God.
John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Also Luke 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

While it is true that all sinners will go to hell and all the saved will go to heaven God is not blind to the severity of certain sins any more then He is blind to the greater righteousness of some. While there is no such thing as a place in hell that is tolerable some will suffer greater in hell then others because of how they lived. The same with heaven. While there is no suffering in heaven some will experience greater joys then others because of their lives.

 

I think you miss the mark here:

Romans 4:1-5 (NKJV)

Abraham chose to believe what God reveled to him. We choose to believe God when the Holy Spirit revels the Gospel to us, or we choose not to believe and continue on in wrath.

Thanks be to God He, in His sovereignty has chosen to save those who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! raying:

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: