Romans 10:13, who is it for?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Accountable, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. Accountable

    Accountable
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    For whosever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Who is this intended for and for what kind of salvation?

    Spiritual, life, etc..
     
  2. TCGreek

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    1. I'm willing to engage you this late Saturday, but let's play by the rules of debating. I assume that you know what they are.

    2. The expression "calling upon the name of the Lord" in the NT is a quotation from Joel 2:28-32 to introduce the gospel.

    a. Later in Acts 22:16 this expression is used in connection with Paul, having his sins washed away.

    b. Then we find the same expression in Rom. 10:13, as a quotation from Joel.

    c. Once more, a variation of it is appears in 1 Cor 1:2.

    3. As a prophecy from Joel, this expression finds its fullfilment in the Last days (Acts 2).

    a. It refers to salvation from sin as seen in Acts 2 and 22:16.

    b. In Rom.10:13, it appears in a salvific context again.

    c. But in 1 Cor 1:2, the expression refers to worship of Jesus as Lord.
     
  3. Accountable

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    Thank you for the kind reply.

    Before I retire for the night, (I must travel to a village to preach in the morning) let us quickly look at chapter 10 of Romans and pick up tomorrow.
    For sake of time, I will give the short answer to what I believe Paul was teaching, if needed we can go into greater discussion later.

    The first thing we must remember is that not every mention of the word "saved" in the Bible referse to Spiritual salvaition.
    Example:[B]1Ti 2:13 [/B]For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    For this to mean eternal security, and spiritual salvation, my wife is definitly saved! We have 5 kids and another due any day now!

    Now that this is understood, let us look back at Romans 10.
    John says we need to BELIEVE. Paul told the Jailor to BELIEVE, and Phillip told the Eunich, BELIEVE.
    Should Paul not teach the same here? He does but not in verse 10.
    He teaches the simplicity of salvation in verse 14.
    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
    Here is where salvation of the spirit took place. Look at all of it together then lets take it backwards.

    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?.....

    Looking at it on a timeline would look like this.
    They are sent so they can what? Preach
    They Preach so they can what? Hear
    They hear so they can what? BELIEVE
    They believe so they can what? Call

    Do you see. Spiritual salvation occurd in verse 14 when they believe. Now that they have believed, they can call upon Him for salvation. (Help)

    To believe that spiritual salvation took place in verse 13, we need to remove verse 14.

    Also might I pose this question... At what point does one recieve the gift of God?
    The man is in the pew under great conviction. He believes the gospel of grace is true. He believes God and takes Him at His Word. He then steps out of the pew, goes forward, and utters the sinners prayer. What if he died of a heart attack on the way to the altar? He has yet to "Call upon the Lord" and has yet to "proffess with his mouth." Yet he has BELIEVED the gospel of Grace. I believe this man has already recieved the gift of God upon the moment he truly believed.


    Last week I was in a village where I witnessed to an 80 something year old lady named Beatris. It was amazing when the scales fell off of her eyes and she started shouting through her tears: I believe! I believe! She had yet to call upon the Lord, yet I believe she became saved and then prayed to God and thanked Him for hwer salvation! Now that she has believed upon Christ, as I disciple her, I show her Romans 10:13 and tell her that her Saviour is listening for her call. And that in her time of need He will hear her.

    God bless!
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

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    Who's to say she did not call upon the Lord when she cried, 'I believe, I believe'?

    I said she did if it was indeed a true belief in the Lord.
     
  5. Lou Martuneac

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    Can Only Mean

    Romans 10:13 "Whosoever," means "WHOSOEVER." Only with a theological axe to grind could a man twist this into something else.


    LM
     
  6. TCGreek

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    1. It is clear from the context of Romans that while some of the letter deals with particular issues, much of it deals with doctrinal, objective realities.

    2. It is safe to say that section 1:16-8:39 deals withe such doctrinal objective realities for all peoples, everywhere.

    3. Then 9-11 deal with Israel and her place in Redemptive History, but along the way, we must observe the doctrinal, objective realities as outlined by Paul. 10:4-21.

    4. With that in mind, where does 10:9-17 fit in?

    a. Vv.9 and 10 are an outworking of vv.6-8.

    b. 11, 13 are quotes from the OT to substantiate Paul's thesis and supporting elements. V.12 is an effort to delineate v.11 and what is meant by "whoever believes."

    c. VV.14-17 are instrumental in their very nature--how we bring the point of vv.9, 10.

    5. Paul is addressing one mode of salvation as stated in vv. 9 and 10.

    6. One would find it difficult to separate "Calling on the Lord" from "Believing in Him."

    7. Syntactically, at least from vv.9-13, "Believing in," "confessing Jesus as Lord," and "calling on the name of the Lord" are hard to separate, without losing some of what Paul is conveying.
     
  7. Mr.M

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    I realize there are difficult passages in the Bible but it amazes me to watch people who apparently have the capacity for complex issues in many areas of life take the most simple and clear passages in Scripture and enlist them to become their hangman. I am often reminded of Bill Clinton's classic explanation of what "is" really is when I read some of the convoluted and heady explanations as to why "whosoever" means anything but "whosoever".
     
  8. LeBuick

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    I AGREE! We all know whosoever is code word for??? I had it right on the tip of my tounge but we know it doesn't really mean whosoever.
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    Nothing like just having a good laugh sometimes, its good for the soul.


    [​IMG]
     
  10. David Lamb

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    I don't think so. In my opinion, separating the word "whoever/whosoever" from "believes/believeth", and making the phrase equal to "everybody" is what causes a simple statement to become complex. It seems to me from some statements I have read on the Baptist Board (and I may be wrong) that some people imagine verses such as John 3.14-16 to mean:

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That nobody should perish, but everybody should have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that nobody should perish, but everybody should have eternal life.

    But that would make nonsense of John 3.36:

    36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

    What it comes down to is that both those who believe man's will is sufficiently free to allow him to "choose" Christ, and those who believe the reformed "doctrines of grace", hold that whoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. I have yet to see anyone on this Board claim otherwise.
     
  11. Accountable

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    Since Paul is dealing with Israel in 9-11, why do you believe he stops dealing with them in a few verses in chapter 10 then picks right up where he left off to finish through 11?
     
  12. Accountable

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    Quick question? Can a person become born from above only using the Book of John or is it impossible for one to be saved without learning first of Romans 10?


    Also nobody has answered the question to the example I first gave. When did that man get saved who was in the pew, fell under conviction from the Holy Ghost, believed the gospel of Grace, walked to the front, called upon the Lord. At what point was this man saved?
     
    #12 Accountable, Aug 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2007
  13. Accountable

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    She was talking to me when she said I believe, I believe. I guess you could try to twist it around but she wasn't praying yet.
     
  14. TCGreek

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    Because as an inspired penman he can.
     
  15. James_Newman

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    And because he can, he must have?
     
  16. TCGreek

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    One side thinks, he cannot and the other side, thinks he can. How do we settle this?
     
  17. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    Ther is no evidence that paul stops dealing with the Jews.
     
  18. TCGreek

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    Good observation! I think he is dealing with both Jews and Gentiles (9-11):

    even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. (Romans 9:24)

    For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; (Romans 10:12)

    But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
     
  19. Mr.M

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    I respect your attempt to explain the validity of differing views. It has some merit in that one isn't free simply to dismiss anyone else's view without hearing.

    However, I did notice that instead of simply answering the question directly those that hold to "DoG" never can or will simply answer the question directly. Why? Because they will indict themselves. They must play a game with words.

    You assert that "DoG" simply believes that the passage teaches "whosoever" believes will be saved. But that is not accurate. That is NOT all they believe about that passage. This is the point of the OP's question I believe. They will tell you that refers to ONLY the elect based on, of course, their belief of LIMITED atonement. And that is NOT the use of the word "whosoever" here.


    When someone asks, to whom is the "whosoever" referring IN THIS VERSE, it is either inclusive or exclusive. Inclusive means anyone...exclusive means only a certain group. And that is NOT the USAGE here of whosoever. The text does not have in view an exclusive group, that is to say it is not having in view "all of the elect and only them". That view is the result of a forced conclusion based on their inflexible Calvinistic scheme placed upon this passage. And that is the intention of "DoG'ers" in attempting to avoid answering the question directly and dancing around it with just what you stated is their most common response. Again why? To avoid direct indictment of what they know is clearly a wrong representation of the use of the word, "whosoever".
     
    #19 Mr.M, Aug 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2007
  20. TCGreek

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    . "Whoever" is addressed to everyone, whether elect or non-elect, but only the elect will come to the Son (John 6:35-37, 44, 45, 65). Those of us who believe in the Doctrines of grace simply teach the plain meaning of John 6 and other such texts.
     
    #20 TCGreek, Aug 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2007

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