Romans 10:19, 11:11 Provoke to jealousy?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. webdog

    webdog
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    What is the purpose? This question is twofold...if the church replaced Israel, why...and if unconditional election is true, why.

    Remember, jealousy is anger towards someone for what they have.
     
  2. Jope

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    That's just the way it is :p (I mean for the latter question).

    The Church never replaced Israel.

    Here's a thought I have:

    What if the parable of the wheat and the tares is speaking of Israel being the tares and the elect of Israel being the wheat that are present in the Church, and once the Church is raptured, they would revert back to being the elect of Israel?

    Matthew 13 KJV, bold emphasis mine
    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.​

    If that is the interpretation, that would mean that the Church is reliant upon Israel. The Church is reliant upon the fulfillment of Israel's promises, because, if God doesn't fulfill His promises to them (Rom. 11:28-29), that means that He won't fulfill His promise(s) to the Church. If God doesn't give Israel her Messianic Kingdom, the Church doesn't have a place in the Kingdom: "lest while ye gather up [Israel], ye root up also [the Church] with them" (Mt. 13:29, KJV).

    Have you ever read George Peters' Theocratic Kingdom, or Arnold Fruchtenbaum's Israelology?
     
    #2 Jope, Jun 6, 2013
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  3. webdog

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    No anti-dispie, anti-free wiil theologian knows the purpose in provoking the Jews to jealousy?
     
  4. genesis12

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    Church did not, does not, will never replace Israel. The Kingdom of God on earth, which will include a remnant of the Jews, follows the Tribulation and is, obviously, yet future.

    "Unconditional Election," properly interpreted and applied, based upon scripture alone, simply means that one who acts upon Romans 10:8-13 will be saved by the Grace of God, no conditions.

    Yea!

    Romans 10:19 quotes Deuteronomy 32:21.

    Romans 11:11 is part of Paul's lament over the failure of the Jews to recognize Jesus as Messiah, and then fail to receive Him as Savior and Lord.
     
    #4 genesis12, Jun 7, 2013
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  5. webdog

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    The determinists / covenanter are awefully quiet on this verse. Calvin got your tongue?
     
  6. kyredneck

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    The reference is [fulfilled] prophecy from 'the Song of Moses':

    They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32:21

    19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.
    20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.
    21 But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Ro 10

    44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed. Acts 13

    When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ? For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27:17,18

    And as they spake unto the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, being sore troubled because they taught the people, and proclaimed in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. Acts 4:2

    And there also came together the multitudes from the cities round about Jerusalem, bring sick folk, and them that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. But the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy, Acts 5:16,17

    But the Jews, being moved with jealousy, took unto them certain vile fellows of the rabble, and gathering a crowd, set the city on an uproar; and assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them forth to the people. Acts 17:5

    27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
    28 But he was angry, and would not go in: and his father came out, and entreated him.
    29 But he answered and said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, and I never transgressed a commandment of thine; and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
    30 but when this thy son came, who hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou killedst for him the fatted calf. Lu 15

    11 And when they received it, they murmured against the householder,
    12 saying, These last have spent but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.
    13 But he answered and said to one of them, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a shilling?
    14 Take up that which is thine, and go thy way; it is my will to give unto this last, even as unto thee.
    15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? or is thine eye evil, because I am good?
    16 So the last shall be first, and the first last. Mt 20
     
  7. webdog

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    What is the purpose?
     
  8. kyredneck

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    ....Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: Rev 18:4

    No doubt it was a wake up call for many of His people to come out of the apostate religion of Judaism, become partakers of the New Covenant, and escape the 'wrath soon to come' upon that generation.
     
  9. preacher4truth

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    Boy you sure bungled up unconditional election in a few short words. You've managed to improperly interpret what it means, and you've also managed to misapply it in your idea of what it means to use 'Scripture alone'.

    Unconditional election has never meant 'jump through these hoops and then I'll will choose you' which is what you are stating.

    To the contrary those whom He has elected will do those things, trust, believe, act of grace manifest &c and shows they are saved. They do these things because He has chosen them, not so He will choose them.
     
  10. Jope

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    The Church will have a position higher than the Jews in the Millennium.

    Ephesians 2:6-7; Luke 7:28.

    Maybe the Jews are jealous of this position or are going to be jealous of it in the millennium... (Just a thought).
     
  11. webdog

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    It still does not explain the purpose for provoking those not elect to jealousy.
     
  12. DrJamesAch

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    That quote from Revelation 18:4 is erroneous anyway. The whore is from ROME. He quoted Rev 18:4 and then explained it as if it was a reference to coming out of "Judaism". Revelation 18 is a continuation of ch 17 which clearly identifies who the whore is (vss 3-4, 9). And then further shows that this Babylonian whore is a continuation of the beast that began in Genesis 11 under Nimrod, to Sennecharib, to Babylon, Medo-Persian, Greece and ending in Rome. Rev 13:2, Rev 19:10-18.

    The Jews learned their paganism from EGYPT. Revelation has in mind here the origins of the first false religious system which is not Judaism but PAGAN EGYPT where it all began. "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" is a description of an empire that fell and was revived, and it was revived with the help of the United States, the leader of pushing the New/One World Order ("Novus Ordo Seclorum" as stated on the back of any US dollar bill). That the US played a part in the whore of Babylon is evident in Revelation 18:23.

    Furthermore, there are of merchandise described in Revelation 18:12-13 that were exclusive to Rome and the US (especially slaves). Thyine wood was used exclusively in Roman and Greek sacrifices to pagan gods.

    You won't get an answer to your questions though. Calvinism does not teach the "whole counsel of God" (evident by their avoidance of prophecy, and distortion of it anytime a Calvinist makes any attempt at explaining anything in Revelation). Calvinism can't explain anything outside of their boxed-in proof texting.
     
  13. Aaron

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    Just going to point out the basic premise of the question:

    God does things out of necessity.
    It is a fallacious premise, but that is the one from which almost every nonclavinist proceeds.

    From the point of view of the Calivinist, God does His will, not out of necessity, but out of volition.
     
  14. DrJamesAch

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    That statement contradicts the Calvinist position of free will, and is erroneous on it's face.

    So if God does not act out of necessity, is God necessary?

    God can not do evil. So does not the very nature of God demand that He act according to His nature? It is necessary for God to act out of love because His very nature demands it. This is a problem that atheists and agnostics do not understand, and it is based on asking the wrong question like "Can God throw and unstoppable rock at an unmoveable pole". It is a ridiculous question that fails to understand the laws of physics that God set in motion. But there are things that God CAN NOT DO. God can NOT lie. Hebrews 6:18, so thus there are things about God that are necessary, in this instance, the truth, because it is not in God's nature to lie.

    It is in God's nature to act of His own will, so is it then necessary that He act according to His own will? If you say no, then you are allowing for the possibility that God could do something other than what is in His nature to do or not do.

    The Calvinist outright denies the possibility that God would choose to have man come to Him of their own free will. It is Calvinism that actually denies God's ability to act of His own volition by demanding that something is not possible that they can not prove is impossible. God's nature does not demand that sinners be forced to choose Him, that is a mere Hobson's Choice. You can not both freely come to Christ and be both determined by eternal decree to come to Him regardless of your will at the same time.

    Is it possible that God could force men to do whatever He wants them to? Of course it's POSSIBLE because He is God and could do so just because He can. But over and over in the Scripture it is evident that God wanted man to freely choose Him, and then He does the actual saving work. The difference in Non Calvinism and Calvinism is that Non Calvinism does not deny God the things that ARE possible unto His volition, the Calvinist on the other hand emphatically denies any possibility of God acting any other way then that their man-made creeds determine.
     
  15. kyredneck

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    Wrong. The Harlot,the unfaithful wife of Jehovah, Mystery Babylon, The Great City, is clearly identified in Rev 11:8:

    And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11:8

    2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.
    10 standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
    16 saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl!
    18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
    19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
    21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rec 18

    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23
     
  16. webdog

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    So it wasn't necessary for Christ to die on the cross.
     
  17. DrJamesAch

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    Revelation 11:8 does not say that that Israel or Jerusalem is the harlot, it is identifying Jerusalem as SPIRITUALLY called Sodom and Egypt because there are a remnant still in rebellion, and it was the place where Christ was crucified.

    Notice that all the nations of the world commit FORNICATION with her Rev 18:3, and the churches commit ADULTERY with her, Rev 2:20-23. If this was God's "unfaithful wife" then she would be committing ADULTERY, not fornication.

    NOT ONCE is the harlot ever accused of adultery. Because the harlot is NOT married to God and never was.

    Israel has never been position on 7 hills. Rev 17:9. Israel has never been associated as Babylonian: Rome has for it is the extension of the beast described by Daniel in Daniel chapter 2, 7, 9 and 11. Israel were CAPTIVES of Babylon, not Babylon itself. Israel has never been associated with wearing purple and scarlet, but guess who has Rev 17:3-4 http://www.valueoftruth.org/rome/scarlet.jpg

    Israel has never been associated with having a golden cup, but guess who has http://www.valueoftruth.org/rome/papalmass.jpg

    Israel is not known for being decked with precious stones and pearls, but guess who is..(Popes mitra , throne and robe alone have millions of dollars of precious stones and pearls in them)

    Israel has not had the blood of ALL SLAIN UPON THE EARTH: ROME HAS. ROME has killed more saints and prophets in 1500 years than Israel ever did. Israel killed ITS OWN PEOPLE, but NEVER THOSE OF THE ENTIRE WORLD like Rome and continues to do through the United Nations started by the CLUB OF ROME and ran by the US.

    The fact the Jerusalem is still standing after the tribulation is over and is then replaced by New Jerusalem proves that Babylon that is fallen is not even remotely close to Israel because the smoke of the whores torment ASCENDS UP FOREVER. Revelation 19:2-3. Awefully hard to claim that Israel is Babylon who's smoke ascends forever when Revelation 3:12 and Revelation 20-22 make it clear that Jerusalem thrives for eternity.
     
  18. kyredneck

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    ...Come hither, I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and they that dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her fornication. Rev 17:1,2

    As 'Mystery Babylon', the Great Harlot, the mistress of kingdoms, the unfaithful wife of Jehovah:

    26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians, thy neighbors, great of flesh; and hast multiplied thy whoredom, to provoke me to anger.
    28 Thou hast played the harlot also with the Assyrians, because thou wast insatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet thou wast not satisfied.
    29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy whoredom unto the land of traffic, unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.
    32 A wife that committeth adultery! that taketh strangers instead of her husband! Ezek 16

    How much soever she glorified herself, and waxed wanton, so much give her of torment and mourning: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall in no wise see mourning. Rev 18:7

    Well she is no queen and she is a widow, she killed her husband Christ the King, and she did see great mourning.
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    Hello WD,
    Just saw this tonight, I am on vacation and running around with the grandkids.

    WD...read chapter 10 into 11 as if there is no chapter division...because there was none.

    God had already promised gentiles would be blessed by the Covenant promise passed on to Abraham. His eternal purpose has been revealed to the church-
    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    What the jewish people and all dispensationalists fail to see is that it is not two separate peoples.... it is always been God;s design to have ONE BODY. not two...one heavenly, /one earthly.

    National Israel itself as a type was split between the elect remnant and the covenant breakers....he explains this in romans 11:1-6...

    11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

    See part two;
     
  20. Aaron

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    *sigh*

    What does God need?
     

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