Romans 11:17

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Oct 31, 2007.

  1. Brother Bob

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    Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded


    If the Election were saved, who are the rest that were blinded????
     
  2. webdog

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    The "elect" are those in Christ from Israel. Not all Israel is Israel (elect).
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    I know but who are the "rest" who were blinded??
     
  4. webdog

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    The first part of "Not all Israel...".
     
  5. TCGreek

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    The rest who were not elect.
     
  6. npetreley

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    Exactly. Or more specifically in the verse...

    What then? Israel [as a whole] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election [those of Israel that are elect, the remnant] hath obtained it, and the rest [who were not elect] were blinded

     
  7. Brother Bob

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    and
    Well, if they were non-elect, then they don't have a chance of being saved, do they?

    Wonder why Apostle Paul thought they could be saved??

    Romans 11:
    8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9: And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
    10: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
    11: I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
    13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

    BBob,
     
  8. npetreley

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    Where does the Apostle Paul say they can be saved if they are not elect? In other words, why do you believe he is specifically talking about "the rest of them" in this passage?
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    Romans 11:
    8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9: And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
    10: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
    11: I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles
    How many times did God cause them to slumber and blind them. I only know of one time, do you know of another?

    BBob,
     
    #9 Brother Bob, Oct 31, 2007
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  10. npetreley

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    Sorry, I'm not getting your point, Bob. It says "them which are my flesh". I take this to mean Jews. But where does Paul specifically say he's talking about the non-elect Jews? Why do you assume that's who he's talking about?
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    Romans 11:
    8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see,
    14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.



    and You are the one who said they were the non-elect, along with TC;
    Paul is saying that he might save some of the very ones who were blinded, that you called the non-elect.

    BBob,
     
    #11 Brother Bob, Oct 31, 2007
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  12. npetreley

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    I still don't get the connection. Verse 7 is still talking about "the rest", so yes, it would say "blinded".

    But verse 14 identifies those he would love to be saved as "them which are my flesh", i.e., Jews. It doesn't identify them as "the rest, or non-elect". Unless you can show why you must apply verses 7,8 to verse 14, which includes its own separate identification (them which are my flesh), I don't get your point.

    Edited to add: Close proximity is not an explanation. The prior verses were also talking about the elect, so one could just as easily say these Jews (them which are my flesh) refers to the (as yet unsaved) elect. But I don't think it says either elect or non-elect. It just says "Jews". Like us, Paul didn't know who is elect and who is not. He just wanted to help save some of his kindred, period.
     
    #12 npetreley, Oct 31, 2007
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  13. Brother Bob

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    This is your post, where you call them Non-elect.
    This is your post now where you are saying they could be the elect, When the previous passage says the elect were saved.
    I mean to try and separate verses 7 and 8 from 14, is just out of this world.

    Also, if the blinded were non-elect, then how can there be "fulness of the gentiles" where they will be saved. Unless you agree with me and salvation is to all men who believe that Jesus is the Christ.

    BBob,
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Oct 31, 2007
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  14. npetreley

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    Okay, this is my last shot at this. If we don't agree, we don't agree. I'm fine with that.

    This is a snapshot in time:

    What then? Israel [as a whole, up to this moment] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election [those of Israel that are elect, the remnant] hath obtained it, and the rest [all who were not elect, up to this moment, not that they can become elect - please don't misread this - I mean all of the non-elect (comma) up to this moment] were blinded.

    In short, not all Israel has been rejected at this point in time, when Paul writes this. There is still a remnant, the elect, which have obtained salvation. But Israel, for the most part, has been blinded. Have ALL the elect been saved? No - this is a snapshot. This is one point in time.

    End snapshot. Now, speaking IN GENERAL...

    That doesn't mean that everyone of Israel who WILL be saved, i.e., all the elect, has already been saved at this snapshot in time. There are still some who are elect but have not yet been saved. Paul wants to be a part of that process because he has a special love for his people.

    Hence...

    13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

    At some future time (I'm guessing this is after the Day of the Lord, but that's just a guess, it's not important), when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, all Israel will be saved. That is FUTURE. It doesn't include the non-elect at THIS point in time spoken of in Romans 11:7,8, "the rest". They've long since died in their sins.

    But at that future time, there will be an elect which either IS or REPRESENTS all Israel.

    Now - does that mean every single living Jew will be saved at some future point? I don't think so, but that's another topic altogether. For what it's worth, I happen to believe this refers to elect from all 12 tribes (the 144,000 who are marked for protection during the Day of the Lord). But I don't want to get off on that tangent, and it doesn't really matter in terms of this argument.
     
    #14 npetreley, Oct 31, 2007
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  15. Brother Bob

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    Okay, this is my last shot at this. If we don't agree, we don't agree. I'm fine with that.

    This is a snapshot in time:

    What then? Israel [as a whole, as of this moment] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election [those of Israel that are elect, the remnant] hath obtained it, and the rest [who were not elect, as of this moment] were blinded. Which you called the non-elect.

    In short, not all Israel has been rejected at this point in time, when Paul writes this. There is still a remnant, the elect, which have obtained salvation. But Israel, for the most part, has been blinded.
    Then the "elect" was only a small part of Israel. I disagree, there was only some branches broken off.


    Scripture says those who were cutoff, will be grafted back in, so they will have to live for thousands of years, according to your theology. The most important part is that Paul wrote the passage of "fulness of the Gentiles" and he apparently believed it had already happened when he wrote this:
    Paul apparently believed the "fulness of the Gentiles had already come".
    Because he was going to try and save some of them who were non-elect, as you say.
    See above, Paul said he might save some of them.

    No where does it say that the ones cutoff will die before being grafted back in. Paul spoke in present times and was looking to graft them back in then, for he told the gentiles not to boast, and that he might save some of them.

    You are now bringing in a third group of Israelites. How far will you go to keep bringing your theology up to date??

    No scripture says anything about another set of "elect" will be grafted back in. He spoke of those who were blinded that you called "non-elect", would be grafted back in.

    Are you saying now that "the rest" were "elect" or what.

    BBob,
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Oct 31, 2007
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  16. npetreley

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    I don't think Paul was saying the fullness of the Gentiles had already come. Okay, so we disagree. I love ya, Bro Bob.
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    Love you too Npet; enjoy our debates.
     
  18. webdog

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    That's the first time I've seen those two statments together in one sentence :laugh:
     
  19. Amy.G

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    The end is near. :tongue3:
     
  20. Brother Bob

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    Peace my brethren and sisters..............:)
     

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