Romans 11 disproves OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

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    [FONT=&quot]Let's look at "the details" in Rom 11 that do not fit OSAS as we answer the question "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]who is the YOU in Romans 11 that Paul is warning and what is he warning them about?"
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    1. The "you" that Paul is addressing in Romans 11 is "IN Christ" and is looking the fact that Jews fell - so that "YOU might be grafted in".

    2. "the YOU" in Romans 11 is "standing by faith"

    3. the "you" in Romans 11 is being told that the Jews who fell and were "removed" by God - "fell due to unbelief and YOU stand only by your faith".

    4. The "you" in Romans 11 who is standing by faith and is clearly a gentile ("[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]you who are gentiles[/FONT][FONT=&quot]") is being told that "you stand only by your faith" and that "YOU should fear" rather than looking at the Jews who were removed by God due to unbelief and then becoming conceited as "you" say to "yourself - they were removed that I might be grafted in".

    5. the "you" in Romans 11 - is a gentile Christian, IS standing by faith and IS being "WARNED" to "[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]fear for if He did not spare THEM then neither will He spare YOU"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]



    [FONT=&quot]Romans 11 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is specifically to the Gentiles - does "I am speaking to you who are Gentiles." - This cannot be spun into "Rom[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 11 is talking about the nation of Israel" .

    How does "move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them." get spun into "the entire nation"?? As if "Some of them" being saved is "the entire nation saved as a group"? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Paul says "restore them again" about the"some of them" he is trying to save.[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]====================================

    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Individual[/FONT][FONT=&quot] - saved gentiles grafted in with individual saved Jews - "fellow partakers" in Christ.
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were[/FONT][FONT=&quot]grafted in among them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]partaker with them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the rich root of the olive tree,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]



    [FONT=&quot]The OSAS argument dies here at several points.

    1. It dies if the argument tries to ignore "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles."

    2. it dies in that Paul's "Graft them in again" is specific to " move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them"
    3. And it dies in that the gentiles that ARE saved are being grafted in WITH THEM - with the "SOME" of the Jews that are saved. " you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them"

    4. And of course it dies in that the Gentile who 'stand by your faith" is being "Warned" about being cast into the lost position of those Jews who even OSAS people admit are lost.

    "thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."[/FONT]


    OSAS does not survive Romans 11 once we admit that those who were cut off are lost and that "you who stand by your faith" are "saved" because you cannot warn the saved about becoming lost the way Paul does here in Romans 11 -- if you choose the tradition of OSAS over the Bible.[FONT=&quot]

    Question - how many of these key salient points in Romans 11 do our OSAS brethren address?
    Answer - none.

    Why? "because OSAS needed these points to be ignored"??[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]Thoughts?[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]in Christ,[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Bob
    [/FONT]
     
  2. Winman

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    Yeah, your interpretation of Romans 11 is wrong. The subject of this chapter is the Jews versus the Gentiles, not individuals. Paul is saying because the Jews have generally fallen away in unbelief, God has broken them off the vine and is now preaching the gospel to the Gentiles.

    Paul is warning that if the Gentiles likewise generally fall away in unbelief, then they also will be broken off, and the gospel will not be sent to them any more.

    And that is exactly what is going to happen in the last days, the fullness of the Gentiles will come in, and once again the gospel will be sent to the Jews, and all Israel will be saved.

    What Paul is discussing here is what is showed in Acts 28;

    Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
    26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
    27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

    Paul is telling these Jews because they will not hear the gospel, that he will go and preach to the Gentiles, and they WILL hear it.

    In Romans 11 he is warning the Gentiles that if they refuse to listen to the gospel, it will be taken from them as it was taken from the Jews.
     
    #2 Winman, Dec 6, 2013
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  3. Amy.G

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    Bob, why do you keep posting your FORGIVENESS REVOKED doctrine over and over??

    Is it because you think we are a bunch of unsaved heathens? Or maybe you actually care and you think we really are born again but just go around sinning all we want because we are deluded into thinking God will still love us? Are you trying to correct us in order to save our souls?

    What.... exactly is your motive?
     
  4. Winman

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    His only motive is to prove you can lose your salvation, but he will NEVER tell you exactly what you must do to lose salvation.

    The reason he will not tell you what you must do to lose your salvation is because he does not know himself.

    The scriptures say a man can KNOW he is saved, something Bob does not understand.

    1 Jhn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    If you are fully depending on Jesus alone to save you, then you can KNOW you have everlasting life.

    But if you are depending on your performance as Bob is saying, you can NEVER know you are saved.
     
  5. evangelist-7

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    Romans 11:22b ...
    Just another one of the 15+ passages threatening BACs that ...
    they must endure in their faith until the end of their lives to be saved.

    Anyone like to see all of 'em? ... We're here to please!

    .
     
  6. Winman

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    Well, if I were you I would concentrate on getting yourself in, never mind others.

    The scriptures say every man will give account for his own self, so you better get busy making sure you endure.

    Good luck.
     
  7. Jordan Kurecki

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    Bob how many times do I have to tell you that Romans 11 is about God changing his plans of working with mankind from working with Israel to working with the church.

    Bob you're consistent taking scripture out of context is really getting old. and please don't go to the verse in Galatians that you always reference because that is talking about people trying to be justified by works instead of faith, hence the term fallen from grace. it does not mean fallen from salvation.

    Seriously Bob you and Ev 7 are heretics teaching unbiblical doctrines and ignoring the whole concept of Salvation by grace.

    There's no difference between Bob and Ev7'sdoctrine of salvation and the salvation found in Islam, Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, or even the Jehovas Witnesses. You basically have the same doctrine of salvation as they do, even though Jesus died and paid the wages of sin,you calim we still have to work and do our part, Bob you ironically are doing exactly what Paul warned those galatians about falling from grace, that is exactly what you are doing. You have no business being on this Baptist forum because you do not really believe salvation is by grace thru faith as Ephesians 2:8-9 says.

    SO tell me Bob, Are we saved by grace through faith, or grace thru faith plus self efforts to keep living right.

    You are a heretic and hypocrite and behave exactly like the Pharisees that Jesus dealt with. How many time do you sin on a daily basis Bob? Why do you act like the Pharisees who pretended to be clean on the outside but on the inside were full of filth? I feel horribly sad for the person who is seeking justification based on one's efforts to keep self holy, because it cannot be done perfectly, Whosoever offends in 1 point of the law is guilty of all as James says.

    Bob are you guilty of breaking any of the commandments? because if you are you are guilty of all.

    It's either Jesus sacrifice for payment or you are paying for your sins yourself, you cannot accept Jesus payment and slap him in the face by saying it requires the self effort of keeping the commandments, which remember you've already broken them before so even if that is the case than your still in deep trouble because you are guilty of breaking all.

    Repent and truly trust in Christ, or suffer the consequences of eternal punishment, which is clearly shown in scriptures regardless of how much you try to twist and distort and take scripture out of context.
     
  8. Jordan Kurecki

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    They were cut off from service, hence God started using the Church to deal with mankind, and God stops using Christians who backslide. the whole chapter is about how God has set the nation of Israel on the shelf for now and is using the church instead.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Super easy question. Are the specific Jews and Gentiles in these two verses lost or saved ??

    Here we have gentiles grafted in among Jews and made fellow partakers with them??


    ==============================================

    [FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]



    ============================

    Not a trick question.

    Super easy to get the answer.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Sounds like you are just the person that would have the correct answer to this super easy question based on the "Bible details" in Romans 11.

    Ready?

    Are the specific Jews and Gentiles in verses 16 and 17 lost or saved ??

    Here we have gentiles grafted in among Jews and made fellow partakers with them. So ... in that case lost?? or saved??


    ==============================================

    [FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]



    ============================

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    [FONT=&quot]17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were[/FONT][FONT=&quot]grafted in among them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]partaker with them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the rich root of the olive tree,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]


    You are using an either-or logical fallacy.

    So to correct that - we look at vs 16 and 17 and ask the question who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

    The lost or the saved?

    [FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

    And of course we both know "ranting does not count as an answer". :)

    in Christ,

    Bob
    [/FONT]
     
  12. Winman

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    Bob, we will have to agree to disagree. Unlike you, I know when to hang it up.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    In almost every case in Acts the believers included both Jews and a number of Gentiles. In Romans 11 Paul explicitly states that he hopes his efforts will work to "Save SOME of them".

    One does not need to embrace an either-or logical fallacy. Either Paul is speaking about the failure of the Jewish nation OR he is focused on individual salvation and trying to 'save some of them".

    Both are true -- obviously.

    [FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

    No matter how often we quote those two verses - they point to individual salvation.

    But it does not take away from the fact that Paul also speaks about the failure of the Jewish nation - as a nation in other parts of the chapter.
    [/FONT]

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Interesting that this is your response after only one post from me where I ask that you look objectively at just two small verses...

    i said "look at vs 16 and 17 and ask the question who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

    The lost or the saved?"

    And quoted these two short verses.

    [FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
    [/FONT]

    =================

    But if that is your bail out point - so be it.

    I started this thread so I have to pay attention to each of the Bible details in the actual chapter and various points are raised.

    If you don't want to look at them -- that is fine. To each his own. We all have free will and I think you know i believe we both have free will.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
  15. BobRyan

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    Forgiveness revoked is specifically the subject "in the text" of Matt 18 and Matt 6. Which is that "other" thread.

    But on this thread we are talking about Romans 11 and the instruction given to those who "stand by your faith" to "fear" for "if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

    This is another text that "cannot exist according to the OSAS tradition" -- and yet it does.

    Here is another place where OSAS does not survive the text.


    I believe that both Catholics and Protestants in the dark ages had saved saints in their group - as is the case here. Some are saved some are lost.

    But the Catholics could not simply dismiss the Bible arguments of the Protestants when those Bible points crossed some favorite Catholic tradition and feel good about it.

    The saints among the Catholics had to pay attention to the Bible at some point - even when it was "inconvenient".

    Jesus said of the Jews who were ALSO hearing "inconvenient truths" -- "you shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free" John 8.

    And in John 14 "I AM the WAY the TRUTH and the life".

    And in 2Thess 2 we who are among the saints must have a "LOVE of the TRUTH".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Winman

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    Bob, I have looked at all the scriptures you point out many times, and I do not believe they teach you can lose salvation.

    If you really believe you can lose salvation, then my advice to you is to spend every waking moment making sure you do not fall away. The scriptures say every man shall give account for himself.

    Everybody here gets it, you believe a person can lose salvation. Got it. Move on.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    I am interested in the actual details that we find in the text in this case. You say that they will all point to the failure of the Jewish nation and in no case point to individuals that are being saved or lost.

    we should be able to look at "Bible details" and see what the Bible says in this chapter.

    And I am simply starting with two really easy verses.

    If your interest is not in reading this chapter or discussing these details that is fine. I am not trying to make anyone do anything against there free will.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Amy.G

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    Here is a text that "cannot exist" according to the FORGIVENESS REVOKED false doctrine:

    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Forgiveness revoked is stated in Matt 18 and Matt 6 - (and Ezek 18) so unless you have some good Bible-cutting scissors on hand - we just have to accept that part of the Bible.

    in John 10 Jesus points to faithful sheep that hear his voice, and follow him.

    Your "inference" is that if anyone at all is ever lost after being saved then there is no such thing as giving eternal life to the saints.

    You are piling a lot of assumptions into that statement that are "not in the text".

    In John 10 Jesus does not deal at all with the case of the fully forgiven saint - that chooses to stop following Christ - to not forgive as he has been forgiven.

    To see Jesus teaching about that scenario you have to go to the chapter OSAS needs you to ignore. Which is why we have that "other thread" on Matt 18 and Matt 6 where Jesus specifically deals with the scenario that OSAS says cannot exist. It is a thread where anyone willing to look at that part of the Bible can say how OSAS survives the text. I notice that you did not choose to deal with the details in the text and show how OSAS survives it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
  20. evangelist-7

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    Yes, the hatred coming forth towards me and my spiritual understanding
    (from some members here) is indeed a very sorry thing to experience!
    Actually, kinda reminds me of the stoning of God's prophets.

    'Tis a bit different than merely having a hearty laugh at spiritual stupidity
    ... the way God does (I suppose you require a reference).

    .
     
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