Featured Romans 11 disproves OSAS

There is a cure for that, humble thyself, repent, believe, and the Holy Spirit will then have room to teach in your heart.

 

Your problem Bob is that the text IS showing Paul is speaking of nations.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Israel is the natural branches. It was God's intention to save all the Jews, but because some did not believe and bear fruit, God broke them off.

This made room for the Gentiles to be graffed in. This is when Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles. Just like the Jew, originally all Gentiles are graffed into the tree, it is God's intention to save them all.

God gives these persons time to believe and bear fruit. Those that do believe and bear fruit are left in the tree, those that do not believe are also broken off just as the Jews were.

It is not saying anyone was saved and then lost, but all of these persons have been given the opportunity to believe and be saved, those who refuse to believe and do not bear fruit are broken off and cast into the fire.

This is very similar to the analogy of rain and land given in Hebrews 6;

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

This passage speaks of persons who have heard the gospel and been enlightened and taught. They have "tasted" of salvation, but not eaten. They have been brought to the point of repentance, but have fallen away in unbelief. It is impossible to bring them to repentance again, they have been broken off.

Except in this passage these persons are compared to earth that God has nourished with rain, and dressed it. God expects this land to bring forth herbs that please him.

But if this land produces only thorns, these are pulled up and burned.

Both these passages in Romans and Hebrews are the same, they are speaking of persons exposed to the gospel and the drawing and power of the Holy Spirit, but have not believed.

 

Not an issue of a bunch of nations in or out, the issue is whether this is showing someone losing salvation or not, and I do not believe that is what this is showing.

It is showing that the gospel went to all the Jews (many branches). They were tapped in to the root (Jesus, Holy Spirit, scriptures, etc...) They were expected to feed off the root and bear fruit. Those that did not believe were broken off.

You remember Jesus said how he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel only. This is what this is talking about.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again, every Jew was expected to feed off the root (Jesus) and produce fruit, those that didn't were broken off. It is not saying they were saved and now lost, they were NEVER saved, they NEVER believed.

This made room for the Gentiles to be graffed in. All were intended to be saved, so all were graffed in. This is when Paul went to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Note, that everything is plural.

This is what Paul is discussing in Romans 11. Now the gospel has gone to the Gentiles and they also are expected to believe and bear fruit. Those that do not believe among the Gentiles shall likewise be broken off.

 

Thomas' misses one key point about Israel, at no time ever did every one who was an Israelite believe God. It is not as if they all individually believed and stopped believing at some point. Those who NEVER believed are those who have been cut off for unbelief.

Therefore, just as God chose Israel, and many are cut off for unbelief, so it is with God choosing the Gentiles, and many be cut off for unbelief.

So yes, the subject of Romans 11 is God choosing people groups and then cutting off those who REMAIN in unbelief. It 's not that they all believed and then changed their minds.

 

Romans 13:
11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness,
and let us put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust,
not in strife and envy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Sorry, but thous don't have it yet.

Easy way out ... as always ... just ignore Paul, and stick with yer tradition.
.

 

This passage of scripture hardly proves a person can lose salvation, it can actually argue against it. It says our salvation is now nearer than when we first believed. It is not implying a believer can be lost, it is implying the very opposite.

 

Absolutely correct. For those who believe this passage is teaching that a believer can lose salvation, you would have to believe 100% of the Jews were saved believers originally. We know this was never true.

 

The point is ... thou do not have eternal life yet.
So, all your nonsense about eternal life being eternal is just that ... nonsense.

Just because polar bears don't need to fly south in winter to be saved
doesn't mean you don't need to practice righteousness to be saved.

Wanna see the verses saying you need to practice righteousness to be righteous?
No, didn't think so.

Just came across a hidden gem ...

Tertius 14:
16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. (*)

Steaver needs this to be translated: practice righteousness to be accepted by God and be in the kingdom.

(*) Romans 16:22
.

 

1Jo5:13 - "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God".

Present tense.

 

1Jo3:9 - "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God".

Guess that pretty much destroys your man made tradition of one losing salvation.

 

This is such a clear statement from God concerning ALL those Born of God Christians. It shows there is absolutely NO sub-group within a group, they are ALL Born of God and they ALL remain saved....

1Jo3:9 - "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God".

I added some emphasis and some color to help those having trouble with this doctrine from God, so they might understand.

 

Oh, you want to see scripture that says we have eternal life now? OK.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus said any person who believes on him "hath" everlasting life. That is present tense. He also said that person has "passed" from death to life. That is past tense.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John said we are "now" the sons of God.

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John not only said "now" we are the sons of God, but he also said the person truly born of God cannot sin. This cannot mean that Christians cannot commit individual acts of sin, for it is obvious that all Christians sin. No, this can only mean that a Christian cannot "continually" sin, that is, no real Christian born of God can fall away in unbelief and be lost. Oh, they may have moments of doubt and despair, but they will never truly lose their faith and become true unbelievers.

The scriptures say a person who is saved is "joined" to the Holy Spirit to become one spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The scriptures say a husband and wife shall come together and be one flesh. This is their children. The child is neither the father, nor the mother, but partakes of both and is an individual, a new creation.

Likewise, when you trust Christ your spirit is washed and joined to the Holy Spirit to become one spirit. You are not your old man, and you are not the Holy Spirit, but you partake in both. You are a new man, a new creation. The Holy Spirit is this "seed" that remains in a Christian in 1 Jhn 3:9. The Holy Spirit cannot sin, he cannot fall away in unbelief, and neither can the person that is born of God.

 

Excellent points! One must totally ignore scripture if one is to cling to the man made tradition of losing salvation. :thumbsup:

 

OK, you are interpreting those who are partakers of the root as saved, I am not. I do not believe every branch is saved, I believe the branches are individual Jews that comprise a nation who have opportunity to be saved, they are exposed to the word of God and the influence of the Spirit. Those who grow off the root and produce fruit (believe) are allowed to remain, those that do not believe are broken off. This allows all the Gentiles to be graffed in. Now these persons are hearing the word of God as the Jews did for thousands of years. They are expected to believe and produce fruit. If they do not, they likewise will be broken off.

I really do not believe you are having trouble understanding my view. I think you do.

A parable of Jesus that reflects this view is the parable of the fig tree.

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

This is similar to Romans 11. It shows a man who planted a fig tree in his vineyard. After three years he expected it to bear fruit. When it did not, he decided it would be best to cut it down. This tree did not bear figs and then stop bearing figs, it NEVER bear figs. It is speaking of persons who NEVER believed, not persons who once believed and then quit believing.

His dresser argued for one more year, he would dig around and fertilize it. If after one more year it did not produce fruit, he would cut it down.

This is what Romans 11 is teaching. The word of God, the prophets, teachers, and Christ himself were sent to the Jews. They were all expected to believe and produce fruit. Those that did not were broken off.

This allowed all the Gentiles to be graffed in. This is the gospel going to all the Gentiles through Paul and many of the other apostles who went to the Gentiles. I do not know if it is true, but I have heard that Thomas went to India for example.

Anyway, it is not saying all these Gentiles are saved, but only that they partake of the Root, which is the holy scriptures, the preaching of the gospel, the influence of the Holy Spirit, etc... They also are expected to believe and produce fruit. Those that do will remain, those that do not believe will likewise be broken off.

But it is not talking about persons being saved and then lost as you are trying to prove.

Plus, you have to deal with the scriptures that show we are saved NOW, and that we cannot sin because our seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in us.

YOU need to deal with those scriptures.