Featured Romans 11 disproves OSAS

As already noted -

These Bible details in Romans 11 - must be "carefully skimmed over and ignored" to get OSAS to survive the text of Romans 11.

=====================================

#1. Paul speaks to individual salvation at the very start saying that "in the same way there is a REMNANT in Israel" today that is saved. Individual salvation vs national failure WITHIN the Jewish nation is the starting context in Romans 11. Paul declares himself to be in that remnant of Israel that remains today - saved. Saved individuals.

[FONT=&quot]1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! ForI too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Elijah tries to make the case that it is a NATION that is fallen and that this is what matters. God says what matters is INDIVIDUAL salvation within that nation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context from Romans 11:1-5 onward explicitly addresses individual salvation as the focus.[/FONT]

Paul declares himself to be in that "remnant" of saved jews that remains today - even amid the nation in rebellion.
[FONT=&quot]"God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,[/FONT]"
[FONT=&quot]4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant[/FONT]


More Bible "details" in Romans 11 that the OSAS POV "needs to ignore" to survive this Bible detail - in post after post.



Saved "holy branches" remain from among both Jews and Gentiles "fellow partakers" in the olive tree.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

Some Gentiles are saved and SOME Jews are saved according to Romans 11.

[FONT=&quot]13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

"Save some of them" is an obvious reference not to "some Jewish nations" but to "some Jews in the Jewish nation". Once again individual salvation is said to be the priority in Romans 11 in vs 14 just as in vs 1-4.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]SOME Jews were broken off for "unbelief" those who believe are called "the remnant" in Romans 11:1-4
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
======================================================

And as shown in my three previous posts - Paul freely admits that he is a jew -- one of the remnant that 'remains at the PRESENT Time" when writing Romans 11.

The faithful Christian Jews joined by the believing gentiles as "fellow partakers in the rich root" from which all derive life.

in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT]

 

Except it does not affirm it in this part of Romans 11 -

#1. Paul speaks to individual salvation at the very start saying that "in the same way there is a REMNANT in Israel" today that is saved. Individual salvation vs national failure WITHIN the Jewish nation is the starting context in Romans 11. Paul declares himself to be in that remnant of Israel that remains today - saved. Saved individuals.

[FONT=&quot]1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! ForI too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Elijah tries to make the case that it is a NATION that is fallen and that this is what matters. God says what matters is INDIVIDUAL salvation within that nation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context from Romans 11:1-5 onward explicitly addresses individual salvation as the focus.[/FONT]

Paul declares himself to be in that "remnant" of saved jews that remains today - even amid the nation in rebellion.
[FONT=&quot]"God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,[/FONT]"
[FONT=&quot]4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant[/FONT]


More Bible "details" in Romans 11 that the OSAS POV "needs to ignore" to survive this Bible detail - in post after post.



Saved "holy branches" remain from among both Jews and Gentiles "fellow partakers" in the olive tree.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

Some Gentiles are saved and SOME Jews are saved according to Romans 11.

[FONT=&quot]13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

"Save some of them" is an obvious reference not to "some Jewish nations" but to "some Jews in the Jewish nation". Once again individual salvation is said to be the priority in Romans 11 in vs 14 just as in vs 1-4.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]SOME Jews were broken off for "unbelief" those who believe are called "the remnant" in Romans 11:1-4
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
================================================== ====

And as shown in my three previous posts - Paul freely admits that he is a jew -- one of the remnant that 'remains at the PRESENT Time" when writing Romans 11. Thus the individual salvation status of both Jews and Gentiles is included in the scope of the chapter.

hence the problem for OSAS in the warning Paul gives to those saved individuals

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]

 

This is the part of the text that needs to be skimmed past and glossed over quickly if one is to cling to OSAS "anyway".

But you have to admit that it is a fascinating study in human nature to watch people try to get around the text that so clearly confronts tradition when it comes to this subject.

Indeed warning the already fallen that they if they do not persevere they might become fallen - makes no sense.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Romans 2, 9 and 11 Paul argues that Jews and Gentiles are in the one spiritual body - called "Israel" and called "Jew".

While it "may have been popular" in the dark ages to call Romans 2, 9 and 11 "heresy" with a sweep of the papal pen -- no longer is that the case.

Now we have Bibles - and we are free to actually read them.

Not "everyone" will join in that "Bible over vitriol" idea - but some will.

Romans 2.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Romans 11
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

 

And who can forget -

Ex 19
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. 5 Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”




Rev 1
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2

4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in Scripture:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
“The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the very corner stone,”

8 and,
“A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”;

for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

 

Interesting - I quote the text - and you say the "text" is my opinion being repeated over and over again. The more I quote the actual text of Romans 11 - the more some here will respond to "the text" as my opinion.

If I were simply posting "well in my opinion Romans 11 disproves OSAS" with no text at all showing the point - then your argument above would have at least some legs to stand on.

But instead of that I show "in the text" the very details that you must avoid.

I have stated repeatedly that you might find some "other text" that is less contradictory to OSAS and could have much "inference" added to it - but even in the two examples you give above - I show that in those places the saints are being warned about failure to persevere and told in 1Cor 6 that if they behave in a sinful way they will not "inherit the kingdom of heaven".

However if "text avoidance" is to be used in Romans 11 to prop up the tradition of OSAS - then as we saw with 1Cor 6 and 1John 3 - that same trick can be used there as well to prop up OSAS.

I don't think anyone was really surprised at that point.

I believe you have that right - the argument here is "with the text" for those opposing Romans 11 (And BTW - this thread is on Romans 11) and so the mere posting of 'the text' is certainly not pleasing to the tradition that is at war with that very text and those very details.

AND EVEN in that context where you admit that it is repeated reminders "of the text" that is the problem - you try to spin it as "just my opinion".

How much MORE so would that "spin" have legs to it - if in fact all I were doing is posting text-less Bible-vacuous opinion posts about "Well in my opinion OSAS would not survive Romans 11".

If that were all the "substance" to my posts - then the complaint that "this is just Bob's opinion" could at least have the appearance of credibility.

As is it "the text" - so often quoted and voided "is the problem".

But as a "favor" to you I am posting this - as a "comment post" so much like those who oppose Romans 11 and dodge the details here that do not fit their OSAS tradition.

You claim that this textless style will be better received.

I find that logic illusive at the moment. If they can duck and dodge the text of scripture itself - how much more a textless post given in kind?

The other reason I post the text is to keep Romans 11 at least visible on every page of discussion or every other page or so. When I am note doing that the thread melts down into a lot of speculation and opinion-posting.

=====================================

Summary -

1. We have a thread ON Romans 11 where the most common complaint is that the "text of Romans 11" is visible and being discussed in the non-OSAS posts.
2. We have specific details IN the Romans 11 text highlighted, and in the form of specific questions - being ducked and dodged in a most desperate fashion.
3. This is more than "a little apparent" for the objective unbiased readers.
4. Those who actively oppose the "Romans 11 details" that must be avoided for OSAS - repeatedly affirm they will not reconsider their opposition to certain Romans 11 details - but I have never doubted them or questioned their determination in that regard. It was never under dispute.

5. We both know that E-7 and Doubting Thomas have already posted the fact that they have no problem accepting the OSAS-refuting Bible details in Romans 11 and Matt 18 and Matt 6. They respond to the pointed Bible questions from both chapters - without any coaxing.


in Christ,

Bob