ROMANS 14

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by wopik, Jan 7, 2005.

  1. wopik

    wopik
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  2. wopik

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    In Romans 14, Paul is addressing the fact that some people eat meat and others are vegetarians.

    Paul is urging tolerance for those with strong and weak consciences (14:1-15:13) about this topic.

    Paul addresses Differences of opinion over food or special days (14:1-6).


    Verse 2 contrasts the person who "eats only vegetables" with the person who believes "he may eat all things": meat as well as vegetables. Verse 6 discusses eating or not eating and is variously interpreted as referring to fasting (no eating or drinking), vegetarianism (eating only vegetables) or eating or not eating meat sacrificed to idols.

    The problem was especially acute for Christians who had once been idol worshipers. For them, such a strong reminder of their pagan days might weaken their newfound faith. Paul also deals with this problem in 1 Corinthians 8 (The Life Application Bible - reference).


    Romans 14 in no way is speaking of the Sabbath much less doing away with it.

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    other references: Everett F. Harrison, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Vol. 10, p. 146 -- "The close contextual association with eating suggests that Paul has in mind a special day set apart for observance as a time for feasting or as a time for fasting."

    It is apparent that Paul was discussing Roman or other special days during which feasting, fasting or abstaining from certain foods was practiced.
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Quoting wopik, QB, In Romans 14, Paul is addressing the fact that some people eat meat and others are vegetarians.QE
    Wrong! Although I agree with you this text does not consider the Sabbath, it just as little considers vegetarianism. It deals with Members of the Church who made such an issue of food and drink of some Festive Season they equaled it with the Kingdom of God. The food and drink of certain "head"-days "observed above" the other days were connected with both abstaining from alcoholic drink while eating meat of flesh, namely the seven days of unleavened bread.
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    SDA's object because they teach Christians don't take fermented drinks.
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Quoting wopik, QB, eating or not eating meat sacrificed to idols.QE

    Again, wrong! From where do you fetch the idea? from Corinthians - not from this Letter! What in any case had the use of meat or the not-eating of meat offered to idols to do with the observance of days?
    Again, the Passover peculiarities answers all criteria implied in Ro.14 - when wine was used, some abstained from eating meat, which meant they consciously did NOT observe the days or the food and drink prescriptions of the festival. Others in the meantime, thought it proper to still feast these days with both eating the meals customarily associated with the period, and not drinking wine whilst Passover-time. They regarded the one day above the other. The first mentioned - they non-observing believers - regarded all the days of the Season of equal importance and requirememnts.
     
  6. Archeryaddict

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    Grasseaters :rolleyes:
     
  7. wopik

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    Passover is not even mentioned here.

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    Paul was writing to a mixed church of Jewish and gentile believers in Rome. In verses 2 and 3 Paul discussed vegetarianism ("he who is weak eats only vegetables") and continued this theme in verse 6 ("he who eats...and he who does not eat").



    The passage in question about days is in verses 5 and 6, immediately between references to eating meat and vegetarianism in verses 2, 3 and 6. There is no biblical connection between Sabbath observance and vegetarianism, so these verses have to be taken out of context to assume that Paul was referring to the Sabbath.



    "The close contextual association with eating suggests that Paul has in mind a special day set apart for observance as a time for feasting or as a time for fasting" (Everett F. Harrison, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Vol. 10, p. 146). It is apparent that Paul was discussing Roman or other special days during which feasting, fasting or abstaining from certain foods was practiced.



    The context shows us that some members of the congregation there were eating meat, and others were abstaining from eating meat. The vegetarians were likely members who "feared lest they should (without knowing it) eat meat which had been offered to idols or was otherwise ceremonially unclean (which might easily happen in such a place as Rome), that they abstained from meat altogether" (W.J. Conybeare and J.S. Howson, The Life and Epistles of St. Paul, p. 530).



    In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul addressed the issue of eating meat that may have been sacrificed to idols and consequently could have been viewed by some members as unfit to eat. Paul's point in that chapter was that any association of food with idolatrous activity had no bearing on whether that food was otherwise suitable for eating.



    It appears likely that Paul was addressing the same issue in both groups, namely whether members should avoid meats that may have been associated with idolatrous worship. This may be indicated by Paul's reference to "unclean" meat in Romans 14:14. Rather than using the Greek word used to describe unclean, or prohibited, foods listed in the Old Testament, he used a word meaning common or defiled, which would be appropriate in describing meat that had been sacrificed to idols. Paul's advice in 1 Corinthians 8 was the same as his conclusion in Romans 14:15: Be especially careful not to offend a fellow member, causing him to stumble or lose faith over the issue of meats. What is clear is that the Roman members' reason for avoiding meat was directly related to the days they were observing.
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Quoting wopik, Paul was writing to a mixed church of Jewish and gentile believers in Rome. In verses 2 and 3 Paul discussed vegetarianism ("he who is weak eats only vegetables") and continued this theme in verse 6 ("he who eats...and he who does not eat").QE

    True, but not complete. The not eating of flesh was for the days involved. Israel ate flesh 15 Nisan, thereafter the had unleavened bread for 7 days. To the Passover meal later on were added herbs of "bitter spices". To me, I say, it looks as if some Christians whether Jew or Gentile, thought it better no longer to of any flesh because the Great Sacrifice had been sacrificed and so to speak had been eaten.

    No offence! We agree on the main negative, that the passage has nothing to do with the alleged abrogation of the Sabbath Day - thank God!
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Again of no great importance, I nevertheless beg to differ with this quote:
    "The close contextual association with eating suggests that Paul has in mind a special day set apart for observance as a time for feasting or as a time for fasting" (Everett F. Harrison, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Vol. 10, p. 146). It is apparent that Paul was discussing Roman or other special days during which feasting, fasting or abstaining from certain foods was practiced.QE

    Not to eat meat but only veetables / herbs for a day or so is not to fast - as it does not mean one is a vegatarian.
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    But the following I unconditionally reject:
    QB, It appears likely that Paul was addressing the same issue in both groups, namely whether members should avoid meats that may have been associated with idolatrous worship. QE

    If Paul addressed idolatous-like practices, go read in Galatians 4:8 to 11 how he would have reacted! He further on concluded there "you are cut off of Christ"! The fact he is so sympathetic with both 'groups' in Rome, shows he answers human weakness - not human arrogance like of pagan idolatry!
     
  11. tragic_pizza

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    You know, there's a nifty "quote" feature that would allow you to post once in a row, Gerhard. Then maybe I'd take the time to read what you write...
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Thanks for the tip, no wonder they say I we older generation had a better computer IQ our children would have had more resoect for us
    But there's my wife hooting ...
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Hi, wopik and our other friends,
    I retrospected a bit since my last post on our current debate, and came to a rather sad conclusion, that we represent exactly what was going on in the Church of Rome to whom Paul wrote!
    We agree on the negative the passage doesn't concern the Sabbath Day; we even agree on the positive the real issue addressed by Paul is to vindicate the Kingdom of God! Yet we would judge one another on his opinion of the precise and detailed meaning of the passage, being so proud of our own we wouldn't allow another! Those in Rome only did better - they all acknowledged God in their doing whatever and thanked Him for it.
     
  14. Michael52

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    The two particular examples Paul used in Romans 14 are just that, examples to demonstrate and explain some principals of proper Christian fellowship.

    If your church wants to meet every 7th saturday for the Lord's day, fine. My church meets every Sunday, no problems.

    It is all about Him. [​IMG]
     
  15. BobRyan

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    The issue of vegetarianism is not a question about OT scriptures (that some are so anxious to delete). There is no OT command to be a vegetarian.

    Paul says "I will not eat meat at all if it causes my brother to stumble" in 1Cor 8:13 and in 1Cor 10:29-33 -- the "vegetarian" question was only coming up regarding the Acts 15 command not to eat meat offerred to idols.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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