Romans 3:10-18 - All people or just some?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Andy T., Mar 24, 2006.

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Romans 3:10-18 - All people or just some?

  1. The passage describes everyone in their fallen, lost condition

    88.2%
  2. The passage does not describe everyone - only certain bad people like atheists, etc.

    11.8%
  3. I have another view (please explain in a post).

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  1. Andy T.

    Andy T.
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    You know the passage - "There is none righteous, no not one...there is none who seeks after God..."

    Question: Does this passage describe all people in their fallen, lost state? Or does it describe just some people - the really bad ones like atheists, etc.? Or do you have another view?
     
  2. Helen

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    It can't possibly mean that no one seeks God in terms of all human beings:

    Glory in his holy name;
    let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
    Look to the Lord and his strength;
    seek his face always.

    1 Chron. 16:10-11

    "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the god of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."
    1 Chron. 28:9

    Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God. He removed the foreign altars and the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He commanded Judah to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, and to obey his laws and commands.
    2 Chron. 14:2-4

    The Spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Obed. He went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you."
    2 Chron. 15:1-2

    Josiah was eight yers old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one yhears. He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and walked in the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left. In the eighth year of his reign, while he was still young, he began to seek the God of his father David.
    2 Chron. 34:1-3a

    Those who know your name will trust in you,
    for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.

    Psalm 9:10

    Please pay attention here to the type of person who does NOT seek God:

    In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak,
    who are caught in the schemes he devises.
    He boasts of the cravings of his heart;
    he blesses the greedy and reviles the Lord.
    In his pride the wicked does not seek him;
    in all this thoughts there is no room for God.

    Psalm 10:2-4

    The poor will eat and be satisfied;
    they who seek the Lord wil praise him --
    may your hearts live forever!

    Psalm 22:26

    The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.
    Psalm 34:10

    But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you;
    may those who love your salvation always say, "The Lord be exalted!"

    Psalm 40:16

    May those who hope in you not be disgraced because of me,
    O Lord, the Lord Almighty;
    ma;y those who seek you not be put to shame because of me,
    O God of Israel.

    .../the poor will see and be glad --
    you who seek God, may your hearts live!
    The Lord hears the needy and does not despise his captive people.

    Psalm 69:6, 32-33

    Cover their [the enemies of God, v.2] faces with shame
    so that men will seek your name, O Lord.

    Psalm 83:16

    Glory in his holy name;
    let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
    Look to the Lord and his strength;
    seek his face always.

    Psalm 105:3-4

    Blessed are they who keep his statutes
    and seek him with all their heart.

    Psalm 119:2

    Evil men do not understand justice,
    but those who seek the Lord understand it fully./i]
    Proverbs 28:5

    Seek the Lord while he may be found;
    call on him while he is near.
    Let the wicked forsake his way
    and the evil man his thoughts.
    Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him,
    and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

    Isaiah 55:6-7

    "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the Lord...
    Jeremiah 29:13

    "For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, like a great lion to Judah.
    I will tear them to pieces and go away;
    I will carry them off, with no one to rescue them.
    Then I will go back to my place until they admit their guilt.
    And they will seek my face;
    in their misery, they will earnestly seek me."

    Hosea 5:14-15

    This is what the Lord says to the house of Israel:
    "Seek me and live"...Seek the Lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire.

    Amos 5:4, 6
    Note: read the rest of chapter 5 to see who it is the Lord is so angry with. You will find it is not with the average man...

    Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
    you who do what he commands.

    Zephaniah 2:3a

    "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. for everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
    Matthew 7:7-8

    "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."
    That is PAUL speaking! Acts 17:26-27
     
  3. Andy T.

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    I posted this in the "I've never known a Calvinist..." thread, but it is appropriate here too:

    I can just imagine the Roman Christians who read Paul's letter, when they got to Chapter 3, in what is meant to be humiliating to man that he may realize Christ is his only hope and salvation, that they said,

    "Phew! I'm glad that didn't describe us! It couldn't have, because we earnestly sought after God and he rewarded us accordingly. Man, I'm glad we did that. I'm glad that we're not like the publicans, atheists and sinners that Brother Paul described as not seeking God or having no understanding. Thank you God, that we are not like them!"

    Yep, I bet that is how they understood chapter 3. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Calvibaptist

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    Helen, you did a very good search on the word "seek".

    Now, show me in those verses where it is clearly stated that all human beings have the ability to seek? Because we can show you a lot of verses (Rom. 3 included) that say that no human beings have the ability to seek unless God first seeks them.
     
  5. Helen

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    calvi, right, David referred to those who seek and the Bible commands people to seek but God has withheld the ability to seek. That is utter nonsense.

    Andy, the Christians in Rome were mostly Jews who KNEW the Scriptures and so knew exactly what Paul was quoting and referring to. That seems to be a lot more than most Christians are aware of today. Please let Bible explain Bible.
     
  6. Andy T.

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    So then, you must agree that they were able to pat themselves on the back for not being like those evil people in ch. 3. After all, they "obeyed the truth they were given" - as you like to put it - which resulted in them saving themselves. No humility necessary.

    [ March 24, 2006, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Andy T. ]
     
  7. Calvibaptist

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    And yet it is exactly what the Bible says. God gives the ability to some and not to others. We have quoted the verses too many times to repeat them again if you continue to refuse to understand.
     
  8. Calvibaptist

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    OK. I can't help myself. Here is one passage.

    Mark 4:11-12 And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 "so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.' "
     
  9. Helen

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    It seems to me that in the context of mark 4, Jesus is talking directly to His disciples. Especially in contrast to the Jews who had been listenig to Him during the parable of the sower and the seed. He is comparing the two groups. Remember that the people who were following Jesus in the crowd were Jews who were supposed to know the Scriptures.

    You might also note that in the very next sentence Jesus says to His disciples, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?" He then explains it to them...and, in so doing, to all of us.

    God reveals the meaning of His parables and of Himself to those who seek. That is one of the main themes of the entire Bible.
     
  10. Andy T.

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    "for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." - Luke 19:10. That is the main theme of the Bible - God reaching down to man, not man reaching up to God.
     
  11. Helen

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    Which is, of course, why we are told to seek, knock, ask.

    It's a mutual thing, Andy. We may be lost, but that does not preclude a lost person from seeking.
     
  12. Andy T.

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    "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." - John 15:16

    It's all of grace.
     
  13. Helen

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    He is talking to the Disciples there! Specifically to them! And the Bible tells us quite clearly about Him choosing them individually.


    Context -- it makes all the difference in the world.
     
  14. 4His_glory

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    I have never heard anyone try to interpret this passage differently than it refering to all men... then I met Helen.

    There is not a conservative theologian who has ever said differently that Rom. 3 refering to all men.
     
  15. 4His_glory

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    Thats right Helen it does, now let us look at the context of the Ps. that Paul is quoting and we will see that this does not just refer to atheists, but all men.
    Ps. 14:1-3
    The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

    Ok God looks down from heaven and what does He see? there are none who do good, they are alltogether corrupt, and none are seeking God.
     
  16. saturneptune

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    It seems to me the verses are talking about all of mankind before salvation.
     
  17. mima

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    I believe in the literal interpretation of this Scripture. "No not one" Whether lost or saved no men seeks after God. In fact this understanding truly speaks to total depravity.
     
  18. Frenchy

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    None Seek God? How Does One Come to Christ?


    I was asked "how do they seek God if the Scripture says "none seek God?"
    (from Romans 3:10-18)

    Romans 3:10-12 is a quote from Psalms 14:1-3: "1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."

    What Paul was stating goes back to what he was saying prior, "who truly is righteous?" Paul is talking about the nature of man, no one is good of their own. Paul said "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Paul said "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not." (Romans 7:18) Jesus said in Mark 10:18 no one is good but God alone. Paul was addressing the true understanding that no one is righteous of his or her own deeds or nature, but it comes through faith in Christ. (Romans 3:21-4:5)

    "How does one then come to Christ if none seek Him?" There are many Scriptures that make this clear. We on our own do not seek the Lord, it is Him who draws us unto Him. In John 1 the Apostle John wrote this: "9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God ." John states that Christ is the true Light that comes into the world that enlightens every man, and in that some will receive Him into their lives, and many will not. (Matthew 7:13-14) These that come to Him do not do it of their own doing, meaning they do not all of sudden say I want to know Jesus (God), but is it through the true Light which enlightens them. What enlightens people? God ultimately of course, but also through the preaching of the Word of God. That is what the Church preached, Christ crucified and risen, and that message is what opens their minds and hearts to receive the Word, and come to Christ.

    The way someone comes to Christ is also the leading of the Holy Spirit as Jesus taught. In John 16 Jesus was speaking to His disciples said: "8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." (John 16:8-11) The Holy Spirit is the one who convict people of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and through Him testifying of Christ to people will come to the Lord. Man of himself can not do it, but God does not hold back from people the message and the light of who He is, and it is through the Spirit that people come to Jesus. It is a decision they make for themselves, they are not forced to believe, God is no respecter of persons, and gives all human responsibility. Jesus said: "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The Scriptures affirm that it is God who begins the work in our life, and we either accept it and commit our life to Him, or we reject Him. Paul said in Ephesians 1:13: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." That is the message of Christ, and Paul says after they listened, and believed, they were sealed in Christ, the wonderful promise of eternal life. Paul said: "6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6) God is the one who leads us to Him, and in that when we come to Him we have the promise that He will perfect or complete it.

    None truly seek the Lord of their own, but it is God who comes to us, leads us to Him, and draws us to Him, and gives us the choice to accept Him or reject Him. The Lord said: "1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, `Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name. 2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts." (Isaiah 65:1-2) Paul quotes this in Romans 10:17-21 showing the love of God that He extended Himself to those who are disobedient and not seeking after Him. Jesus in Revelation 3:20 says "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." Jesus stands at the door of mankind's hearts, and knocks, and those who open the door Christ comes into their life.

    Acts 2:22-37: 22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God,
    you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him, `I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 26 `THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; 27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 28 `YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.' 29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: `THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, 35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."' 36
    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" Peter preached to the crowds on the day of Pentecost, testifying of Jesus being crucified and risen, and they were pierced in their hearts, and wanted to know Jesus personally. That is the Gospel, the Word of God that leads people to Christ, and is powerful: "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12) People come to God by His Word being preached, the Holy Spirit convicting them, and them receiving the message. No, there is none good, and none who seek God, for we all have fallen short to the glory of God, and it is God who says I am Here, come to Me.

    http://www.afcministry.com/none_seek_God_romans3.htm
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  19. Frenchy

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    Helen your verses are for the most part dealing with those who are already SAVED or God's CHOSEN

    of course we will seek after God if we already have a relationship with him, now who doesn't know the scriptures :rolleyes:
     
  20. Frenchy

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    what a rediculous statement, of course the one who has been born again of the spirit of God SEEKS God! we are now NEW creations old things are past away behold all things become new. our spirit and God's spirit are now one. we seek God's will the unregenerated DO NOT.

    So please do not confuse Helen's verses on SEEK to be for everyone, those who are NOT saved DO NOT SEEK AFTER GOD

    THOSE WHO ARE SAVED DO SEEK AFTER GOD
     

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