Romans 4:10

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Dec 4, 2009.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: Ro 4:10

    What is the significance of this statement? What is the point that Paul is making?

    .......and please, don't be bashful. I'm not setting up a 'staw man', but I do have a point to make.
     
    #1 kyredneck, Dec 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2009
  2. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    The point is that Abraham is the prototype of all who are saved. He was saved, not by keeping the law, for the law had not been given. He was saved, not by circumcision, for circumcision had not yet been commanded. He was saved by faith in the promise that God made him.
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    Swaimji, are you implying that, after the law was given, it was by the keeping of the law that folks were saved? It sounds that way. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  4. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pray tell, how do you conclude that from what I said?

    Just say what you want to say and be done with it. I don't think I want to play your game.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    By this:

    I asked you a simple yes or no question.
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Without reading other comments, that God has justified both Jew and Gentile apart from the works of the Law in Christ Jesus on the basis of faith alone.
     
  7. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    But here is my conclusion, which you apparently did not read.
    So I conclude that we are saved today, not by the law, and not by circumcision, but by faith, just as Abraham was. That is the point of Romans 4:10.
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    ........you should be a politician (maybe you are). Again I ask:

    Yes..........or.............no.
     
    #8 kyredneck, Dec 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2009
  9. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Once again, you edited out the last part of what I said. If you read it, the answer is clear. I have clarified my statement and a "yes or no" answer is not necessary. I think everyone on the BB who reads it can understand it. If you cannot, then for you, it will have to remain a mystery. :)
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    No, once again, you avoided giving a direct answer to a direct question.

    You won't give a direct answer, therefore I have to conclude that swaimji believes that while the old covenant was in effect, it was by the observance of the law that folks got saved. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

    Just so there's no doubt about my stance on this issue:

    because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin. Ro 3:20

    yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    I don't understand it. Do you believe that under the adminstration of the Law of Moses that people were saved by keeping that Law?
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    Heheh, so far he hasn't given a yes or no answer to that, and I don't expect him to.

    ..........and I have to wonder........how many other 'dispies' out there believe that?
     
    #12 kyredneck, Dec 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2009
  13. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have spoken about Abraham who lived prior to the law and I have spoken about believers today, who live after the law. In both cases, people are saved by faith, apart from the law. I don't see what you don't understand about that. Please clarify. As for people who were under the law and how they were saved, I have not addressed that, so I don't see why that is relevant to what I have said nor why that topic, which is unaddressed in the thread should cause you to not understand my clear statements about how Abraham was saved and how people are saved today.
     
  14. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    My question to you was about how people were saved under the adminstration of the Law of Moses. I want to know what you believe about that. Were they saved by the Law, hence, the works of the Law, or were they saved by faith alone?
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    Swaimji believes that the physical seed of Abraham was saved by observing the law, WHILE THE LAW WAS IN EFFECT.

    true

    false
     
  16. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is that what you wonder? Tell you what, Kyredneck, run a poll on the BB and see how many dispys will say that they hold the position that people under the law were saved by keeping the law. You will not find one, because that is not a tenant of dispensationalism and never has been. I don't feel the need to defend myself on this point because the system I espouse does not hold such a thing and I have never said anything on this board that would indicate that I hold such a thing. The issue is not a real issue. It is a contrived issue that springs out of your own confusion.
     
  17. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is no reason for you to ask me this question. I have never said anything on this board (member since June 2000) that even hints that I believe such a thing. I consider this question an insult. If you hung me upside-down by my ears and pulled my toe-nails out one by one, I would not give you the pleasure of hearing a yes or no answer to this question.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    No, the confusion springs for your refusal to give a simple yes or no answer. A six year old could read this thread and come to that conclusion.
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ok, so you don't believe people under the Law were saved by the works of the Law while the Mosaic Covenant was in effect.

    That wasn't too hard now was it? lol
     
  20. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kyredneck, here is the opening sentence of this thread:
    I seriously doubt that the average 6-year-old would comprehend this question or the concept of circumcision, especially if the 6-year-old was female. I think theology has a depth that apparently has not occurred to you.
     

Share This Page

Loading...