Romans 4 - impute - count - reckon

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

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    The same Greek term Logizomai is translated “counteth” “counted” “reckoned” “imputed” “imputeth” in Romans 4:

    Rom. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [Greek λογιζομαι] unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned [Greek λογιζομαι] of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted [Greek λογιζομαι] for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth [Greek λογιζομαι] righteousness without works
    ,


    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute [Greek λογιζομαι] sin.
    9 ¶ Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned [Greek λογιζομαι] to Abraham for righteousness.
    10 How was it then reckoned? [Greek λογιζομαι] when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
    11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed [Greek λογιζομαι] unto them also
    :


    22 And therefore it was imputed [Greek λογιζομαι] to him for righteousness.
    23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed [Greek λογιζομαι] to him;
    24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, [Greek λογιζομαι] if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead
    ;

    1. As you can clearly and easily see the Same Greek term is translated “imputed..imputeth…impute….counted..reckoned

    2. Abraham’s faith is said to be both “counted” (v. 3) and “reckoned” (v. 9) demonstrating there is no difference between being “counted” and “reckoned.”

    3. The faith that is “counted” for righteousness (v. 3) is also said to be “reckoned” by grace (v. 4)

    4. Abraham’s faith is also said to be “imputed” (vv. 20-22) as well as “reckoned” and “counted” (vv. 3,4,9) demonstrating there is no difference between “imputed” and “reckoned” and “counted.”

    5. Verse 5 is said to be further explained by verse 6 (“EVEN AS”) showing that his faith is “counted” for righteousness is one and the same as righteousness is imputed to the one believing.

    The reason that both faith and righteousness are both “counted…reckoned…imputed” is because the kind of faith being described has the righteousness of Christ for its only object. Abraham believed in the gospel of Christ in the UR of the Chaldees when it was preached to him by God (Gal. 3:6-8 with Gen. 12:1-3) before he left for Haran (“had said” – Gen. 12:1). Paul explicitly states that the gospel of the promised “seed” was understood by Abraham to be singular as in Christ and that God made this covenant agreement in Ur through the preaching of the gospel “IN CHRIST” 430 years prior to Moses:

    Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    Hence, both His faith and righteousness are IMPUTED to him because the faith has for its object the promise provision of God’s Righteousness found in the Person and works of Christ and that is precisely how Abraham’s faith and righteousness are directly applied to us:

    Rom. 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness
    .
    23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on himthat raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification
    .



    1. Note it is his faith that is IMPUTED for righteousness in Romans 4:20-22 [as the antecedent for "it" in verse 22 is faith in verses 20-21] just as it is our faith that is IMPUTED to us for righteousness because that faith has for its object the promised provision of God’s own righteousness found in the Person and works of Jesus Christ in Romans 4:24-25.

    2. Hence, both our faith is counted/imputed for righteousness and righteousness is imputed to us because the faith that justifies has for its object the righteousness of God found in the promised provision of the gospel.


    All the prophets since the first prophet Abel preached faith in Christ receives remission of sins:

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Gal. 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted [Greek λογιζομαι] to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


    Now compare the use of the same Greek term λογιζομαι

    Gal. 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted [Greek λογιζομαι] to him for righteousness.

    Rom. 4:9 ¶ Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned [Greek λογιζομαι]

    Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    22 And therefore it[antecedent is faith in verse 20-21] was imputed [Greek λογιζομαι] to him for righteousness.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jul 12, 2012
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  2. savedbymercy

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    What Abraham believed was that His Righteousness was premised on the Seed Christ accomplishing His Work that He agreed to in the Everlasting Covenant, and he believed that He was already Righteous by having that Righteousness imputed to Him already, that is what He believed !

    All the Elect of God are born sinners with this Righteousness already laid to their charge, even though in their natural state of enmity they do not know it !
     
  3. targus

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    How does someone know that they among the Elect of God?
     
  4. reformed_baptist

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    Do Greek words have a semantic range like English words do I wonder?

    For example, if I was to say 'I ran for the busy as my nose ran' does the word 'ran' mean exactly the same in both cases?

    Does λογίζομαι (Lemma) always have exactly the same meaning in every context - or does aspect and voice of the verb impact the meaning?
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    Sure! If you twist and pervert God's Word to mean anything you like and that is precisely what you have done! Show me one statement in Romans 4:1-25 or in Galatians 3 where Paul said that what Abraham "beleived" in was that he was righteous ALREADY???? Can't do it! He believed in the PROMISED seed that should come and it is that faith which was IMPUTED for righteousness. Your perverted gospel does not need "imputed" or "counted" or "reckoned" righteousness because you have him actually and literally already righteous WITHOUT FAITH and BEFORE faith! However, that is not what Paul said or taught but it is HIS FAITH that is imputed "FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." You are preaching "another gospel" which is the extreme opposite perversion of the Arminian works gospel.

    According to you he was already righteous not only BEFORE circumcision but BEFORE faith. However, it is HIS FAITH that is imputed FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS not His purposed union in Christ before the world began! Go back and learn what it Isaiah 46:11b means - "I have purposed it; I WILL do it."
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Jul 12, 2012
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  6. The Biblicist

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    If you will look at my conclusions again you will see "counted" and "reckoned" and "imputed" are synomyms (vv. 3,9, 20-23) for the exact same thing.

    Both faith and righteousness are imputed, reckoned, counted, accounted because they are INSEPARABLY UNITED as righteousness is the object of justifying faith as demonstrated in Romans 4:20-24 and Romans 3:24-26.
     
    #6 The Biblicist, Jul 12, 2012
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  7. reformed_baptist

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    The Merriam-webster Collegiate thesaurus list the following synonyms for 'impute' - "Ascribe, accredit, assign, attribute, charge, credit, lay, refer" it does not list counted and reckoned - now whilst I agree that these terms have some overlap in semantic range it is incorrect to view to view them as synonyms.

    All I am saying my freind, is that one a mere exegetical basis the case has yet to be made in my opinion :D
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    As long as everyone on this forum acknolwdges Websters dictionary as the final authority your position is very secure. However, if they recognize the Scriptures as final authority your position is completely erroneous as it is the same faith in Romans 4:3, 9 and 20-23 that is "counted" and "imputed" and "reckoned" as righteous.


    Rom. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [Greek λογιζομαι] unto him for righteousness.

    The pronoun "it" has for its antecedent "beleived" in verse 3 just as the pronoun "it" in Romans 4:22 has for its antecedent "faith" in verses 20-21. Just as the pronoun "it" in verse 23 "it shall be imputed" refers to righteousness in verse 22 in regard to "beleive" in verse 22.

    Rom. 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
    23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


    Likewise, the very same "believed" in verse 3 that is "counted" for righteousness is the "faith" in verse 9 that is "reckoned" for righteousness

    Rom. 4:9 ¶ Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned [Greek λογιζομαι]


    However, your biggest problem is that it is the very same Greek word translated by all three terms "counted...imputeth....reckoned" and it is not Websters version that is correct but the use of Archaic King James English that is correct as the translators considered them all synomyns of THE SAME GREEK TERM. If your position were correct then the KJ Translators were incorrect as they used ALL THREE TERMS to translate the VERY SAME GREEK TERM.

    Also, what you are failing to see is that both "faith" and "righteousness" are INSEPARABLE from each other in regard to justification as it is the righteousness of God found in God's provision of Christ that is the object of that faith RESTS UPON and RECEIVES as its own inseparably as one in the sight of God. Judicially righteousness is imputed to the "ungodly" beleiver as much as His faith is "counted" for righteousness because they are inseparably united.
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Jul 12, 2012
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  9. Yeshua1

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    So you would see Abraham being already regenerated and justifified before God before even having the faith in God and His promises to save him?
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    Sounds like pauline theology 101!

    Ephesians 2:8–9
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and 1that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast
     
  11. reformed_baptist

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    Firstly I would hope that the people accept the scripture as the final authority in regards to all matters pertaining to faith and conduct rather then simply the final authority. The bible is not the final authority on how to repair my car. Nor is an single translation into the english language to be viewed as a final authority on that language.


    So counted, imputed and reckoned must all mean exactly the same thing without even a nuance of diveregnce in sense because they modify 'faith'

    Let's see how that works;

    I counted the beans
    I ate the beans

    therefore ate and counted must be synonyms - is that right!

    Tell me, have you noticed that it is ἐπίστευσεν in v3 (verb) and πίστις v9 (noun)


    Rom. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [Greek λογιζομαι] unto him for righteousness.

    Actually the greek reads;

    τί γὰρ ἡ γραφὴ λέγει; ἐπίστευσεν δὲ Ἀβραὰμ τῷ θεῷ καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην.

    Did they? I suppose you have the translators note to prove that do you?

    The translators notes were lost in a fire so you cannot be that certain that this is waht they were thinking - so perhaps you will answer me this question, if they thought the greek term meant exactly the same thing in each context why did they translate it using different words and not the same one? More likely it is that they believe the greek word was being used in it's full semantic range by paul and they wanted to bring out the subtle nuances of the word to enrich our understanding of God's word.


    Tell me how many different ways does the KJB render καὶ?

    I can think the following ways off the top of my head; and, also, even, indeed, but. These are all valid translations of the same word, but are they synonyms in English?

    What makes you think I am failing to see anything? I am just examining the exegetical assumptions :D
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    You mean like you do ? When God revealed this promise to Abraham Gen 12:3

    3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    Abraham was already Righteous before God by the Imputed Righteousness of Christ ! God would not even have revealed such a promise to a man without that man being in Christ before the world began !
     
  13. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    The object of Faith [Christ] is what is imputed as Righteousness. Now when was Christ's Righteousness laid to the account of the Elect ? It was before the world began !

    For God never Imputed the sins of the Elect to them, because when Christ was set up as the Surety for the Elect in the Everlasting Covenant, at that time He became charged with their sins ! Now He could not have been legally charged with their sins then unless they were in Him at that time ! Now if they were in Christ at that time, they were Justified at that time, and if Justified at that time, they were Righteous at that time !
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Read the text carefully and you will note the perfect tense "had said" in verse 1 demonstrating this took place in Genesis 11 while still at Ur before leaving to Haran. Indeed, this is what motivated Abraham to leave Ur to Haran and then after his father died at haran he was told this again.

    Again this is the gospel presented when he was in UR as Galatians 3:6-8 demonstrates which he believed and continue to believe each time it was expanded with more information (Gen. 15:6-7). It is his "faith" in this gospel message that is "counted for righteousness." Not a word about being already counted righteous BEFORE he believed. That is your nonsense!
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    isn't the TAHT the point of paul in Galations, that NONE will be accounted as being rightious unless/when they receive Christ by faith alone?
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    The bib

    Yes, the Gospel reveals to the one its sent to their interest in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace. When God Preached the Gospel to Abraham in the Ur, He was revealing to him Christ as his Righteousness Just like it does now Rom 1:16-17

    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    But Christ was Abraham's Righteousness before it was revealed to him in the Ur !
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    We are talking about doctrine not about cars or what color is Mars! The Holy Spirit has chosen the very same term in every single one of these verses in the same context about the same things and I agree that the KJV translators ought not to have used diversive terms when the Greek text does not use diversive terms or speaks about diversive subjects when using the SAME term.




    That is not your argument. You argued that "imputed" cannot be used as a synonym with "counted" or "reckoned" according to WEBSTER! So you are not arguing about a nuance but a completely different application altogether based upont the same Greek term used in the same context for the exact same things.

    The term "imputed" is used of the same "faith" (noun to identify the subject) which when exercised as an action ("beleiveth" - verb) results with the very same consequence "righteousness" is imputed, counted and reckoned due to that exercise of "faith" (noun) as an action "believeth" (verb).





    Apples verus oranges as this is in no way a proper analogy for the same Greek term used in the same context describing the very same thing. Reckoned, counted, imputed are all accounting terms and thus in Galatians 3:6 the same Greek term is translated "accounted." In accounting language they are all synonymous. Whereas to "count" verus "eat" beans is a stupid analogy which has no bearing whatsoever on our discussion.

    Come on give me a break? I have had five years classroom Greek and have taught Greek and you are trying to invent a distinction that does not exist? Do you really think the noun "faith" is descriptive of something different than the action in verse 3????:BangHead: Faith in this context is the action of believing in God's promise.


    I did not list the various tenses for the same Greek term because that does not change the fact it is the SAME TERM with the SAME MEANING as tense does not change the meaning of a term but only the applied sort of action.







    Give me a break! You don't have multiple subjects and contexts here but the context is about one subject and that is justification by faith without works. Justification is defined in verses 5-8 as imputed righteousness that is without sin.

    In every use of this SAME GREEK TERM there is only one thing that is in view and that is the very kind of "righteousness" necesssary which justifies the "ungodly" who has no personal righteousness and is sinful.

    You still have the problem that this righteousness is imputed, counted, and reckoned by faith (vv. 3,9,20-23) therefore not only the very same GREEK term is used in all three cases but ALL THREE English terms are used for the same righteousness in regard to faith.

    You are simply barking up a wrong tree and your attempt to be scholarly demonstrates your lack of scholarship but only an attempt to confuse what is amazingly clear to anyone who is unbiased and objective.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Jul 12, 2012
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  18. Michael Wrenn

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    You are absolutely correct. I have pointed out this distinction, knowing quite a lot about linguistics, but it was poo-poo'd by Biblicist.

    As I have said, the Biblical truth and teaching is that our faith is counted as righteousness. Imputed righteousness is an invention of the Magisterial Reformers which leads to the false doctrine of forensic (legal) justification. And yet some Baptists swallow that and blindly follow Luther and Calvin. The earliest churches did not believe in imputed righteousness or forensic justification.
     
    #18 Michael Wrenn, Jul 12, 2012
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  19. reformed_baptist

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    No we are talking about the how language works. I have challenged you to try and get you to fill in the gaps in your explanation, and yes some of the examples I have used have been rediculus - but that was to make my point.

    There is just one other thing i would like to address though;

    When you say;

    I said no such thing and I would ask to kindly to respond to what I have said and not what you would have liked me to say - there seems to be a lot of that on this board! Here is what I said

    So I am saying they are not synonyms, but they might have synonymous uses - and you have not made the case that they are being used in that way!
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    No, the problem is that the Apostle paul makes it clear that when one places faith in jesus, receiving the justification from God on basis of jesus keeping the law for us, as our substitute before the father...

    God calls us as rightious as jesus Himself!

    Think of that, God Himself looks at me and sees"IN Christ" that apart from ANY good works, I am just as pure as Jesus is!

    Nothing else can make me clean, nothing but the blood of jesus!
     

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