Romans 5:1

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Van, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. Van

    Van
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    Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (NASB)

    Does anyone think there might be a problem with this traditional translation? I do.

    The verse gives the impression that because we were justified by faith, we then also have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The alternate view is we were both justified and obtained peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    The preposition (ek) means out of or from and points to the origin. Jews, and believers with the faith of Abraham came out of their Old Covenant faith and into their New Covenant faith in Christ. Thus the idea could be since we were justified stemming from faith, we have peace through our Lord.

    Another idea for translation of "ek" faith is "according to faith" or according to the faith. Thus we would be striving to live according to all Christ commanded. Accordingly, if the action refers to an aspect of salvation "ek" would be translated "stemming from" and if the action refers to our life after we are born anew, it would translated according to.

    Now if we review all the verses which translate "ek" faith as by faith and consider "stemming from" and "according to" we find surprisingly good agreement.

    Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, 5:5, and Hebrews 10:38 could all be translated "according to faith."

    And these verses Romans 5:1, 5:2, 9:30, 9:32, Gal. 3:8, 3:24, and James 2:24 could all be translated "stemming from faith."

    There are a couple of other verses where "ek" faith is found that do not seem to fit. Romans 4:16 best reads "based on faith" and Galatians 3:22 is best translated as a subjective genitive, "faithfulness of Christ.

    Final point, all of the "by faith" translations in Hebrews 11 have no separate preposition, so "by faith" creates no confusion.
     
    #1 Van, Jun 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  2. Van

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    To sort of clean up and finish the presentation, Acts 15:9 could be revised to read, "And He made no distinction between them and us, the faith cleansing their hearts.

    Acts 26:18 could be revised to read, " ...those who are set apart into Me, based on faith.

    Romans 3:28 could be revised to read, " For we maintain that a man is justified based on faith apart from works of the Law.

    Romans 3:30 could be revised to read, " Since God is one, he will justify the circumcised based on faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

    Romans 4:16 could be revised to read, " For this reason it is based on faith so that it may be by grace, with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants—not only to those who are under the law, but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    If we consider just those verses where the Greek phrase "ek pisteos" appears, one choice would be to stick with "based on faith" for all of them. Romans 1:17, 3:30, 4:16, 5:1, 9:30, 9:32, Galatians 3:8, 3:11, 3:22 (based on faithfulness of Christ) 3:24, 5:5, Hebrews 10:38 and James 2:24.

    That would leave the "iE (dative article to the) pistei (dative) found at Acts 15:9, 26:18 (with pistei followed by iE dative) and Hebrews 4:2. "With faith" works for all three, assuming the order of the words in Acts 26:18 is without significance. Acts 26:18 would then read, set apart into Me with faith.

    The verses that have no preposition, Romans 3:38 and Hebrews 11 would remain "by faith."

    Those with the preposition "di or dia" would remain "through faith or faithfulness" Romans 3:30, 2 Cor. 5:7, and Gal. 2:16,

    That leaves us with "en (in) pistei (dative) at Galatians 2:20 and 1 Timothy 1:4. I think sticking with "by faith or faithfulness" fits the context best.
     
  4. Van

    Van
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    I see I missed on verse, Romans 5:2, (iE pistei) which can also be translated "with faith."
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    We have our peace with God not due to our faith in Jesus, but due to the Cross of Christ!
     
  6. Van

    Van
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    Therefore, having been justified based on faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Romans 5:1
     
  7. Van

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    The two key ways saving faith is presented is "ek pisteos" and "dia pisteos." Through faith carries with it the idea of "by means of faith" or because of faith. In Romans 3:25, we see "whom God displayed publicly as a propitiatory shelter in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed." Our faith, if credited by God as righteousness provides the our access into Christ where God is propitiated.
     
  8. Van

    Van
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    If something is accomplished "through faith" who is using faith as the basis of the action, God or man? God puts us into Christ spiritually on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.
     
  9. Van

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    Another possible distinctive of "ek" faith and "dia" faith is those that were already a believer in Yahweh and embraced the gospel did so based on their existing faith, whereas those saved through faith started out without faith in Yahweh, and therefore came into faith as well as embraced the gospel, thus into and out of or through. Obviously this distinctive (if it is a distinctive) is not applied consistently, for the Gentiles are saved "ek" faith rather than "dia" faith at Galatians 3:8.
     
    #9 Van, Jun 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
  10. Van

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    God puts us into Christ spiritually on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness. Thus we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; And that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
     
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  11. Van

    Van
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    Luke 7:50
    And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

    Luke 8:48
    And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace.”

    Luke 17:19
    And He said to him, “Stand up and go; your faith has made you well.”

    Luke 18:42
    And Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has made you well.”

    Luke 22:32
    but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

    Romans 14:22
    The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

    1 Corinthians 2:5
    so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

    1 Corinthians 15:14
    and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

    1 Corinthians 15:17
    and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

    Ephesians 3:17
    so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

    Colossians 1:4
    since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;

    Colossians 2:5
    For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

    2 Timothy 1:5
    For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you as well.

    James 2:1
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

    1 Peter 1:9
    obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

    I guess God is telling us it is our faith after all.
     
  12. HankD

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    On first blush it seems to me to say that because we have been justified as a self realized exercise of faith in Jesus Christ we should also be experiencing (on the same basis) peace with God.

    In other words - we have been justified by faith therefore we should be experiencing peace with God via the Spirit of Christ. Move on to that position!

    Surprise! IMO - the Douay-Rheims has a better translation than the KJV

    KJV Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    DRA Romans 5:1 Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Problem however in the Rheims - there is a 1st person plural imperative indicated "let us" but no imperative (but an accusative form) in the text. I think I remember this as an exception to the imperative rule though, does anyone know or remember using accusative for an imperative?

    Yea, I know the Rheims was translated from the Latin Vulgate (Clementine?).

    Again, basically to me it says - you have experienced justification by faith in Christ, now allow yourself the same faith experience with the peace of God.


    HankD
     
    #12 HankD, Jun 19, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2016
  13. Van

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    Hi HankD, once again we disagree. Therefore, having been justified based on faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Romans 5:1
    Using this understanding of "ek pisteos" the result of God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness, is He puts us in Christ were we are (1) justified, and (2) made at peace with God, both through the washing of regeneration in Christ.
     
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  14. HankD

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    NOT A PROBLEM Van. How do we learn without disagreement.
    I realize we have such a problem here at the BB where (and I have certainly been guilty) ad hominems fly left, right, north , south and every other direction known to man.
    I believe it is the Chinese venue of debate that the first issuer of an ad hominem is the loser.

    So please don't concern yourself about that.
    Looking at the passage again, I am saying that perhaps the Romans had a problem knowing the peace of God.

    In fact we have that problem today in 21st century churches with Christians swallowing handfuls of tranquilizers, spending oodles of money to get some restful sleep with psychosomatic afflictions from worry and concern.

    My proposition is that Paul is saying - based on your faith (with no theological dispute based upon sources like C vs A, who would not exist for centuries to come, etc) realize you have not a worry in the world seeing that your peace with God has been assured because of your first faith/love in Christ

    This is at least an interpretation that has the above application or so I have used it as such.

    Why fret? You are at peace with the Creator of the universe and OBTW He is your heavenly father.

    No need to respond unless you want the last word which I invite and we can leave it at that brother van.

    HankD
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    Yes, I do see a differing aspect between being justified, and being at peace with God. The first is a done deal, and we will see its benefits at Christ's second coming. But the second (peace with God) has on going benefits as we live obediently, with God reigning in our lives. I think that was the reason for the offset. But both were achieved when we were placed in Christ, IMHO. Thanks for engaging in actual edification efforts.
     

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