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Romans 5 (Atonement)

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Benjamin, Dec 27, 2004.

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  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Due to Adam's transgression "all" have sinned. (So eternal death, but for God's grace.)

    Even though before the law (Moses), sin was not imputed, also after the law, but before Christ, these sins would be imputed?

    As per Romans 5, "all" by the free gift from God through our Lord Jesus Christ maybe be made righteous and recieve atonement. (So justification of eternal life.)

    I would like to ask for some opinions as to how and when these souls, before being justified by Christ's blood, recieve the grace of the gift of atonement?
     
    #1 Benjamin, Dec 27, 2004
  2. RobTN

    RobTN New Member

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    Your question is a very good one and a very deep one. I don't claim to have all the answers, but i have looked into the Scriptures for similar answers myself. Here is what I have discovered: I believe that whatever has brought salvation to men of all ages (Old or New Testament) has pointed to the Cross of Christ. He is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Now, Paul says, "And the scripture, forseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" (Galatians 3:8). Paul, himself, in his epistles defines the gospel as the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Concerning those under the law, Hebrews 10:28 declares, "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses." So, I believe if one followed the law of Moses in faith and did not despise it, He was saved. On the contrary, one could follow Moses' law outwardly and yet despise it inwardly. This man would no doubt have died without mercy under the witness of the thrice-holy God of heaven who looks on the inward man. I believe that whatever light was given for the salvation of men at whatever time God was dealing with them all pointed toward faith in God and His Lordship and the death and atonement of Christ on the Cross. I believe that salvation at all times, and still today deals with a major, and very unpopular issue, of Lordship. The Bible tells us numerous times that Salvation is of the Lord or refers to it as the Salvation of the Lord. Romans 10:13 - "For whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 14:9 - "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and the living." So, in whatever period of time a man lived, if he submitted to the Lordship of God and His salvation in faith (which would have always pointed toward the atonement of Christ on the Cross), that man was saved.
     
    #2 RobTN, Dec 29, 2004
  3. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I agree

    2 Corinthian 5-10
    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    So if one (tried) to follow the law of Moses in faith and did not despise it, but made a fatal mistake. Grace would be given to him because Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

    1 Peter 1:20
    Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    1Peter 1:25
    But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    “ever” G165
    ákþí
    aioôn
    ahee-ohn'
    From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past);
    by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or
    future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the,
    while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


    If this is so; Why would we need the Gospel preached to us and they didn’t need it preached to them? Why was he made manifest to us?
     
    #3 Benjamin, Jan 2, 2005
  4. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    #4 wopik, Jan 6, 2005
  5. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict New Member

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    OT saints were saved By trusting and believing in Gods promise of the coming Messiah

    Tribulation saints will be saved after the Rapture by trusting and believing Jesus promise of His second coming which will be a very hard time to be a Christian that is why TODAY is the day of Salvation.

    The following Old Testament texts either directly or indirectly point ahead in time to the coming of the promised Savior, the Messiah. These prophecies may refer to either His first coming or His second coming, or both.

    1. Genesis 3:15; 12:1-3; 22:1-18 (see Galatians 3:8); 49:10

    2. Exodus 12

    3. Leviticus 16

    4. Deuteronomy 18:15-19 (see Exodus 33:17-23)

    5. 2 Samuel 7:12-17

    6. Psalm 2:1-12; 16:7-11; 22, 23; 110:1 (see Matthew 22:41-45); 118:22

    7. Isaiah 7:14; 9:1-7; 52:13--53:12

    8. Jeremiah 23:1-6; 32:37-40; 33:6-9, 14-18

    9. Daniel 2:31-45; 7:13-14; 9:24-27

    10. Micah 5:2-5

    11. Zechariah 9:9; 13:7; 14:1-11
     
    #5 Archeryaddict, Jan 6, 2005
  6. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict New Member

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    I agree
    I think we should observe the Psaaover
    which paints the perfect OT picture of Gods saving grace that when the blood of Jesus is applied we have been given the gift of eternal life with God in His Kingdom.

    this is extra but I believe that the birth of Christ was during Yom Kippur
     
    #6 Archeryaddict, Jan 6, 2005
  7. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    The atonement thought is a nice one.

    Excuse the question of HOW and WHEN the grace of God, the promise, extends to the people before the cross ?

    I've since realized that not having studied theology (being a bible reading lone ranger) and witnessing much deep debate I find myself coming up with more questions than answers and no practical way to discuss and answer these things without first learning the terms and basics of theology. I’ve also discovered that I’m probably very literalist and that I should start with an unbiased book of basic theology. As the bible says:

    1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV)
    33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


    Ecclesiastes 12:12 (KJV)
    And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.


    Proverbs 1:7 (KJV)
    7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

    I would say, “I agree”.
     
    #7 Benjamin, Jan 7, 2005
  8. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    All right I'll ask!
    Your saying Christ's judgement seat=tribulation?
    That "all" doesn't mean the hole body of Crist?
    If I don't understand the theology yet and decide how the end is coming that I'm going to miss the boat?
    That would be because I'm not saved?
    Or not saved in the right way as in thinking it's still God's will that I should not sin and am going to pay for that?
     
    #8 Benjamin, Jan 7, 2005
  9. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Archer,

    No way Adam or Eve were saved “by trusting and believing in Gods promise of the coming Messiah”! Yes, all of the references you cited point toward the coming of the Messiah, especially Isa 53! But were they expected to have faith in something they did not and could understand?

    I contend that they were saved by grace through faith on the basis of the shedding of blood, but that they did not even have the slightest comprehension of substitutionary atonement of Jesus. Most did not even have a concept of His Messianic glory, let alone His suffering.

    Certainly agree that from the standpoint of the NT and with the benefit of hindsight we can clearly see the application and fullness of these passages, but most OT saints did not even have a dim conception of what would happen on calvary.


    RobTn, Wopik,

    Neither of you stated it, but I did pick up a hint that OT saints were to some degree saved by keeping the Law of Moses. NO WAY!!! The law could show that they were sinners, but it could not make anyone righteous!

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Can’t get to Rom 5 without first going through Rom 4!

    Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    What about Galatians?
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    And, Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    And, Phlp 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


    Benjamin,

    Will work on a better response to your question, just did not want to see the thread go the way it seemed to be going. As far as the Mosaic, the Passover and Lordship, will also address later.

    rjprince
     
    #9 rjprince, Jan 8, 2005
  10. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    rjprince,

    May I first say that in my search for the truth I have discovered that the thing I feared most, being brain washed by twisted scripture, I stand convicted of having believed half-truths given to me from listening to a man on the satellite. Being told that he was not affiliated with any group and trusting that he was only teaching God’s words-word by word, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, that I have been deceived and now realize after reading posts and researching that I have been singing a charge for the JCOC.

    I am very upset about this, but also feel innocent, praise God for bringing me here and showing me the truth, and that man can answer to God.

    I knew some of the things he said did not line up, and now know much of my confusion was from seeds that he had planted. He has steered me away from fellowship and although having Jesus as my chief cornerstone I have been building my house on sand.

    That being said, I still find it hard to believe that “any man” has all the answers correct about the end times, or comes to his conclusions without outside influences, which I’m sure you agree. I also know you have helped me to clear that confusion up and that is of God.

    Praise God for answering my prayers,
     
    #10 Benjamin, Jan 9, 2005
  11. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    rjprince,

    I hear ya and I’m working on a question, in-between building cabinets and family that will hopefully help me clear a lot of things up.

    Thanks
     
    #11 Benjamin, Jan 11, 2005
  12. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    rjprince,

    I hear ya and I’m working on a question, in-between building cabinets and family that will hopefully help me clear a lot of things up.

    Thanks
     
    #12 Benjamin, Jan 11, 2005
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