Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jul 7, 2014.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    In a recent thread ...a poster offered this post which attempts to supply an answer that I think has missed the mark.

    Do you agree that this passage has not been correctly understood?
    Which parts of this statement can you agree with...and which part do you feel is lacking?

    Do you view this passage as speaking of water baptism?
    Have you ever viewed this passage as speaking primarily of Spirit baptism?

    Then how do you understand vs 6......
    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


    Please speak to the verses or what you feel are related scriptures when you reply.:love2::love2:
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    here from an article by a Christian reformed pastor arguing about the mode of baptism...Angus Stewart offered this;
    :wavey::thumbsup:
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    John Murray offers this;


    These quotes and verses clearly demonstrate this truth-

    Carefully mark the Gk. verbs in Rom. 6:2–10. They are all in the
    aorist tense and ought to be translated as a past event [“died” rather than
    “dead” or “are dead”] to be reckoned as an objective, present reality, not a
    merely possible state which is to be sought as a subjective religious
    experience,



    i.e., “are enabled more and more to die unto sin.” The inescapable
    conclusion is that union in the death of Christ necessarily means that the
    reigning power of sin has been broken in the life of the believer—every
    believer. The Scriptures neither teach a two–stage salvation or sanctification,
    nor do they contrast a “carnal” and “spiritual” Christian as normal to the
    Christian life.....WR.Downing
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Jul 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2014
  4. convicted1

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    Baptism spoken of here in Romans 6 is referring to Spiritual baptism, imo. If the water was all the poster said it is, then we could save everyone by sticking them under water.

    We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, and not H20....
     
  5. kyredneck

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    I agree, the text is not referring to water baptism but to our spiritual immersion into Christ.

    But there is a 'saving' from water baptism when it is correctly viewed as an act of profession, i.e., confessing Christ as Lord.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Did John Murray suggest how this is such a vital doctrine in his writing...yes he did on page 164 he offers this-

    What is it that binds past and present and future together in the life of faith and in the hope of glory?

    Why does the believer entertain the thought of God's determinate counsel with such joy?

    Why can he have patience in the perplexities and adversities of the present?

    Why can he have confident assurance with reference to the future and rejoice in hope of the glory of God?

    It is because he cannot think of past ,present, or future apart from union with Christ,
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    You are correct once again my brother:thumbs::applause::thumbs:...
    I am enjoying these solid statements as I pull them up because they are meant to be a great blessing and joy....why they are overlooked is a mystery.
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    What? That view is not only wrong it is not orthodox.
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    You are also completely correct KYRED......it is UNION with CHRIST....effected by the Spirit who binds us eternally to God's love.....

    and in light of who we are IN UNION WITH CHRIST...the Apostle then points out we are to behave or act as who we are in reality...children of the living God.

    Paul basically says the same thing in EPH 5.....what we are to do{Imperatives}
    are based upon who we are declared to be{indicatives}


    17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

    18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

    20 But ye have not so learned Christ;


    5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

    2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

    4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

    5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

    13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

    14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

    15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

    16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

    17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    RM...how so?

    Does water quicken us...or the Spirit of God?

    By application this passage is used by Baptists in describing what water baptism symbolizes....that is the reality of what Spirit baptism has done on our behalf.

    If you see water here primarily...that would be speaking of baptismal regeneration that none of us hold to....correct???
     
  11. convicted1

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    :confused:
     
  12. convicted1

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    Christ was just as much Christ before He was baptized by John.

    We were as much in Christ before being baptized in the water.

    Jesus' baptism was a sign to John that the Messiah prophesied of old, was here.

    Our water baptism shows the world we now serve Him.

    Water baptism doesn't complete the salvation process...
     
  13. DHK

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    Did you take the time to read carefully the quote that Icon posted in the OP?
    Here is one part you may have missed:

    Wherever the post comes from there is no suggestion that water saves as you infer. On the contrary, the exact opposite is strongly affirmed.

     
  14. Iconoclast

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    In the quote from the OP...the poster said this-

    .

    Here speaking about water baptism...the conclusion offered is....It is symbolic

    However if Paul is speaking of Spirit baptism ...it is actual....see it?

    from post 3

    Carefully mark the Gk. verbs in Rom. 6:2–10. They are all in the
    aorist tense and ought to be translated as a past event [“died” rather than
    “dead” or “are dead”] to be reckoned as an objective, present reality, not a
    merely possible state which is to be sought as a subjective religious
    experience,


    Agreed...so this passage CANNOT be speaking of water baptism primarily.....see this??

    Water baptism is a picture...an outward picture of the truth and reality of our inward and very real Union with Christ that can clearly be shown from scripture!
    so this idea is to be rejected.....

    Paul did not say.........nothing has happened......he said the old man was crucified with Christ....that is the great truth that is being dismissed....which if read correctly...no one would believe that...even the person who posted it!

    wrong , because water is not in view primarily...only as an application of this reality.
    The bible gives us the PICTURE...we are not to guess at what this means.
    water baptism has a purpose...but this is not it.
     
  15. JamesL

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    One of my biggest problems with the spiritual baptism view is that Paul did not stop at"baptized", but also went in to mention "raised"

    Considering that he squarely equates it to an identification with Christ's death and resurrection, we must consider the method of His burial and resurrection.

    Jesus was "buried" in a tomb, then "raised" OUT OF that tomb.

    So, if this "burial" of baptism is speaking of being baptized (buried) into Christ, then BY NECESSITY we would be "raised" OUT OF Christ to walk in newness of life.

    We would need to be raised out of that which we were buried into, otherwise it would not be a picture of and identification with His burial and resurrection

    ?? Doesn't make sense to be raised out of Christ
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    The biblical picture given to us in a few different places Con 1 let me offer them to you before this thread spirals out of control..{ not that it ever does on BB;)]

    10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    James L

    Spirit baptism is our identification with Christ in reality...in His death and in his resurrection......we died in Him and we are raised in Him.....

    look at 1 cor 10...they were baptized unto Moses..[identified with him and His message...they passed through death-----the water----unharmed because they were rightly related to it, having identified with Moses....

    the same with Noah..1 pet 3...they were rightly related to the death of the floodwaters and safe in the ARK{ Christ Jesus} the water was death to the unbelievers...the world of the ungodly who did not believe the word preached...but those who were saved through it had the "answer" of a good conscience toward God.:thumbs:
     
  18. JamesL

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    But that does not answer the problem of being buried into something and being raised out of that same something. Jesus was buried in a tomb, and raised out of that same tomb.

    If we are buried into Christ, then we must be raised out of Christ.

    Yes, the people identified with Moses. And they passed through water. In other words - they went in the midst of the water, then came out of the very same water. They passed through.

    Same with Noah. They were immersed in water in the flood, then when the water receded they were brought out of it.

    The point is that they were "baptized" into something (water), and came back out of the same

    Now, I'm not arguing for water baptism being merely an outward sign. I believe there is spiritual efficacy in water baptism. Not regeneration, or justification, or anything of the sort. I believe our conscience is cleansed when we are water baptized, in much the same way it is cleansed through confession of sin afterward (1John 1:9). This cleansing of the conscience is what enables us to walk un newness of life - forgetting the things we left behind.

    Ananias told Paul to get up, be baptized and wash his sins away. What did he mean?
     
    #18 JamesL, Jul 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2014
  19. Iconoclast

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    Here is another testimony:

     
  20. Iconoclast

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    JamesL
    We are not said to be "buried into Christ"...we are said to be united to Him ......when He died, we died...when he rose we rose.



    The same water was death to the Egyptians.....they were not savingly identified with moses in the place of safety!

    Sometimes Presbyterians make fun of Baptists and they say ...[the only people were immersed in the flood, or the red sea were the Egyptians, or the world of the ungodly.....immersion was death to them.

    They prove our point by trying to make fun of us!:wavey:

    The water was death...forget the tomb.....it is speaking of death...the immersion is speaking of passing from death to life.{IN JESUS}
     
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