Romans 7:13-25.

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by ruthigirl, Feb 3, 2003.

  1. ruthigirl

    ruthigirl
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    I would like you to go verse by verse and ask your-self if this verse could be a true believer before you give your thoughts. [​IMG]
    Is this a saved or unsaved persons life here?
     
  2. Caretaker

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    Romans 7:

    13: Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.


    14: For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


    15: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

    16: If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

    17: Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

    19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

    20: Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

    22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

    23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

    25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


    Romans 8:

    1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


    Gal. 3:

    24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


    For we have all sinned and come far short of the glory of God. The flesh wars against the spirit, but praise God we are justified in Christ.

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  3. Daniel David

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    If Romans 7:14-25 is about Pauls current state (as a saved person), then he damns himself in Romans 8 and is way off base in Romans 6.

    In Romans 8, Paul said that the carnal man is at enmity with God. He is not able to be subject to God.

    This is quite a conclusion of what he said in Romans 7:14 (I am carnal...).

    Here is the problem with this passage: people read it and say that they experience the same battles. Oh really? Do you strive to obey the Mosaic Law? Paul just said you are not under the Law.

    Paul was demonstrating the truth of Romans 6 with his own personal example in Romans 7.

    There is no middle ground. You are either saved or lost. There is no innocent or carnal. Both ideas are fabrications of people who have a different agenda.
     
  4. C.S. Murphy

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    Ruthigirl I believe the passage is simple especially when you look at the following verses:
    22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    Paul is saved and I am also so we both delight in the law of God after the inward man. I don't think he is here referring to the mosiac law but rather to God's law in reference to the change inwardly that God brings. When we think on the goodness of God we have to delight in his love and compassion for us.

    23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. The law of sin and death continues to rage in my flesh, how sadly we often see this law in action through the Baptist board when well meaning Christians allow a heated exchange to bring out the beast in us.

    24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Paul asks a legitimate question as a saved person we still struggle with sin and actually Paul well knew that the wages of sin is death and this body is dying and will lay down in death unless Jesus returns first.Who can deliver us, Jesus of course.

    25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Paul as he often does here answers his own question, Jesus Christ then he once again paints the picture that is still accurate today , the struggle between the spirit nature and the sin nature. The victory has ultimately been won in Christ but the battle goes on every day. Will we serve Christ tomorrow or the body of this death?
    Murph
     
  5. Siegfried

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    In the earlier portion of the chapter (and chapter 6, as well), is Paul not referring to Mosaic Law? At what point do you think he changes his meaning? What exegetical argument can you make for this switch in meaning?
     
  6. Alliswell

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ruthigirl, Like the Prodigal son, most of us wonder if these two passages are referring to a saved or a lost person.

    The Prodigal son was a son who strayed from the Father's fellowship but longed for home.
    (Almost as much as his Father longed for him to come home.)

    Yet the Father said:
    Luke 15:24, 'for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.

    My conclusion is that it can be applied to either the lost who is being saved or the straying Christian, in the case of the prodigal son.

    In the Romans 7 passage, I had also concluded from the 22nd verse that Paul is speaking of his
    present condition as a saved person, who, like Peter when he went out and wept bitterly; felt awful anytime he realized that he had fallen short of the glory of God.

    Which honest Christian has not had this feeling?
     
  7. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    "Is there such a thing as a Carnal Christian?"

    (Please read more than the first paragraph before replying to this post) [​IMG]

    Yes, in fact, there is no such thing as a Christian who is not at times carnal. Did you get that? And if you're saying to yourself, "I have never been carnal," then, "God have mercy on you."

    But let me tell you what people mean by that. There was a definition of a Christian as a Carnal Christian, as if that was a permanent condition. The people in the Church used to teach that there were three kinds of people, Natural, Carnal, and Spiritual. And they would define the Natural person as unregenerate, unsaved, self on the throne, life in chaos, and sin everywhere.

    Then there is the Carnal person. What's that? That's the Christian who still has self on the throne. Christ is still in there somewhere, running around, but He is not in charge, and the life is still in chaos. So the only difference between a natural and a carnal person is that Christ is in there somewhere, but the life hasn't changed.

    And then thirdly, there is the Spiritual Christian. Self is off the throne, Christ is on it, and the life is all in order. And so people came up with the idea that you could be either a Carnal Christian or a Spiritual Christian. You know, once you are saved you could say, "Well, I am going to stay a Carnal Christian, I like it better."

    And that brings in this whole idea of Lordship, because those are the people who accepted Jesus as Savior, but not as Lord. Those are the people who said, "I don't want to go to Hell, and I want you to save me from Hell and I want you to forgive my sins, but I just don't want you to run my life.

    And the old definition of a Carnal Christian was a person who believed in Jesus for salvation, but didn't let Him be Lord, and didn't let Him run his life. That's not what a Carnal Christian is. That isn't at all what Paul had in mind in 1Corinthians 3, not at all. Let me show you what it is.

    There are only two kinds of people in the world. My grandfather use to say the " saints " and the " ain'ts ," that's it, Christians and Non-Christians, Believers and Unbelievers. Now listen, the Natural man is the unregenerate. The Spiritual man is the regenerate man. Read Romans 8, the Spiritual man is the regenerate. But the Spiritual man can act in a fleshly way. Anytime you disobey the Lord, you are carnal. Anytime you obey the Lord, you are Spiritual. Anytime you do what you ought not to do, you are carnal. That means fleshy, you're operating off the principle of sin. Anytime you do what the Lord wants you to do, you honor the Word.

    So carnality is not a permanent state of Christians who have not given Christ Lordship. Carnality is simply a momentary experience of the Believer who is disobedient to God. So it is not a state, it is simply a kind of behavior. And all Christians at any given moment, right now, this moment here, are either Carnal or Spiritual, depending on whether you functioning in the Spirit or in the flesh. If you are sitting there and the Spirit of God is teaching you, and you are enjoying what's happening, then the Spirit of God is at work, you're a Spiritual person.

    If you're sitting there saying, "I don't like what he is saying, I don't buy any of this stuff. I reject all this stuff. This stuff isn't true." And you have hostility in your heart, and you may be dealing with sin, and you don't like what I said, I don't know. Your flesh is reacting, that's Carnality.

    Taken from www.biblebb.com

    [​IMG]
    Sue
     
  8. Thankful

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    Thank you, Sue, for posting this. A lot to think about.
     
  9. Daniel David

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    I counted at least 8 references to the "Law" in Romans 6:1-7:13. They all refer to the Mosaic Law. The only possible reference is found in 7:2-3 when it mentions the wife and the "law" of her husband. If this is Mosaic Law, then that brings the total to 9 times in this passage.

    Now, let us consider some things that Paul said in Romans 6:

    1. Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts (v.12).

    If Romans 7 is his present state as a believer, then this passage is worthless. He apparently didn't know how to impliment this truth.

    2. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace (v.14).

    If Paul just taught that a saved person is under grace as its master, why did he keep striving to obey the Law in Romans 7?

    ___


    Now, in Romans 7, Paul says some unbelievable things if he is speaking as a believer:

    1. I am carnal, sold under sin (v. 14).

    He just spent all of chapter 6 that we are free from the mastery of sin. We are no longer slaves to sin. Then he says this? I don't think so.

    2. For what I am doing, I do not understand (v. 15).

    Is this not a confused person or what? Is this the person that is penning the greatest document ever written?

    3. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells (v. 18).

    Well, Paul taught elsewhere that the flesh and its passions were crucified with Christ.

    And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal. 5:24).

    We can consider others, but this is enough for more of a discussion.

    Bottom line, the identity of the person in Romans 7 is striving to obey the Mosaic Law.
     
  10. ruthigirl

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    In Gal.5:16-26. This is the struggle that we face as christians and that is clear.
    However here in Romans we have a differant context. [​IMG]
    A note to remember when coming to the truth of Romans 7 is that we can never read the Bible and say that sounds like me and I am saved so the right interpretation must be.... That is an emotional argument. We must always interpret in context first and then see if we need to change. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. Helen

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    I think Paul himself makes it VERY clear about the condition of the person in this passage. Starting with verse 9, Paul declares himself (before) in a position of being dead five times, with the culmination in verse 14 of saying that he is unspiritual and sold as a slave to sin!

    Thus, what he explains about that condition is what follows in the passage in question.

    The interesting thing is that, contrary to the beliefs of some, he says very clearly that even though he is in this spiritually dead state at this point, he not only knows what is good, but desires to do it. This very clearly, at least to me, shows that the spiritually dead person is not at all spiritually unconscious, but rather is separated from God and thus helpless to do the good he wants to do. In verses 21-23 we read:

    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

    If this is a saved person talking, then Paul is contradicting himself, for only a chapter earlier, he stated

    For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin...You have been set free from sin, and have become slaves to righteousness.
    Romans 6:6, 18)

    If that is, however, an unsaved person speaking, then it is clear that in his inner being, he is nevertheless delighting in God's law...
     
  12. Thankful

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    Missed you Helen. Glad you are back [​IMG]
     
  13. C.S. Murphy

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    A couple of questions:
    Was Paul speaking of himself in this passage or someone else? If someone else who? Was Paul not saved when he wrote this? Did Paul not declare time and again that he was not following the law? My mind goes to Galations 2:16, knowing that a man can not be justified by the works of the law but by faith in Christ. As to the comments that since he mentions the twofold desires of a Christian he must be talking about following the law and the unsaved person what is John talking about in 1st John : 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    I sin every day although in my inward man I love the law of God but sometimes that which I would do I don't and those things that I know I shouldn't do I end up doing. Oh wretched man that I am who can deliver me?

    Murph
     
  14. Helen

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    Hi Murph,

    All through Romans Paul is presenting logical and chronological arguments. In Romans 7, from verse 7 on, Paul is using the first person singular. However the indication is clearly that this was him in the past, and also that he is using himself as an example of all men. The fact that the verb tense changes from verse 13 to 14 is indicative of the form of argumentation being used, not his personal current condition.

    The struggle we have after becoming a follower of His is different from the struggle we had before. Before, we could not EVER do the good we wanted to do ("Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God" Rom. 8:8). After, we despise the fact that we cannot ALWAYS seem to do the good we want to do ("If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8)!

    In both cases, the rescue is only in Christ.
     
  15. C.S. Murphy

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    For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do [Rom. 7:19].

    Have you experienced this?

    Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me [Rom. 7:20].

    It is that old nature, my friend, that is causing us trouble.

    I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me [Rom. 7:21].

    When you are attempting to serve God in the Spirit, have you discovered that the old nature is right there to bring evil? Perhaps an evil thought will come into your mind. Every child of God, regardless of his state, must admit that in every act and in every moment evil is present with him. Failure to recognize this will eventually lead to shipwreck in the Christian life.

    For I delight in the law of God after the inward man [Rom. 7:22].

    "The inward man" is the new nature.

    But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members [Rom. 7:23].

    You see, you don't get rid of the old nature when you are saved. And yet there is no power in your new nature. "I see a different law" is the enmity of the old nature against God. It causes the child of God who is honest to cry out, as Paul cried:

    O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [Rom. 7:24].

    This is not an unsaved man who is crying, "O wretched man that I am"; this is a saved man. The word wretched carries with it the note of exhaustion because of the struggle. "Who is going to deliver me?" He is helpless. His shoulders are pinned to the floor -- he has been wrestled down. Like old Jacob, he has been crippled. He is calling for help from the outside.

    I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin [Rom. 7:25].

    "I thank God [who gives deliverance] through Jesus Christ our Lord." This is the answer to Paul's SOS. God has provided deliverance. It introduces chapter 8 in which the deliverance is given in detail. Both salvation and sanctification come through Christ; He has provided everything we need.

    Murph
     
  16. Daniel David

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    Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:

    1. Have you experienced this?

    2. It is that old nature, my friend, that is causing us trouble.

    3. Every child of God, regardless of his state, must admit that in every act and in every moment evil is present with him. Failure to recognize this will eventually lead to shipwreck in the Christian life.

    4. "The inward man" is the new nature.

    5. You see, you don't get rid of the old nature when you are saved.

    6. "Who is going to deliver me?" He is helpless.

    7. Both salvation and sanctification come through Christ; He has provided everything we need.
    ___

    1. This has no bearing on the identity of who Paul is talking about. A believer is free to do good and must choose evil. This person is incapable of doing good at all. That describes a lost person.

    2. Believers do not have an old nature. 2 Cor. 5:17: If any man is in Christ Jesus, he is a NEW creation. Old things have passed away, behold all things have become NEW.

    3. I don't see this as an accurate interpretation of what Paul said. I believe that he is saying that inspite of what he does as good, it is really evil. Therefore, in his best, it is still evil. This could only be a lost person.

    4. This is one interpretation but does not fit the rest of what he is saying. The "inward man" could merely be desire/duty to obey what he wants to. Remember what the person is delighting in: the Mosaic Law. This is a Pharisee through and through.

    5. Consider Galatians 5:24:
    And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

    6. The Christian wonders who will deliver him? He is not helpless. Sin is now the servant.

    7. And despite our differences in interpretation, Murph, we can both agree on the crucial point of this text.
     
  17. C.S. Murphy

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  18. Tentmaker

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    I think for a proper understanding you have to go further to Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk [people who are saved] not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
    "Therefore" is the key to our understanding. It always points back to what was said before. In the verses in question Paul is talking about the current state of every believer, and the ongoing struggle with the old nature which tries to resurrect itself in the believer. Ro 8:1 assures us that though we may struggle, we do not come under condemnation (judgement for it). In v. 7:24 Paul asks "who shall"--future--"deliver me". We have yet ahead a future deliverance in our glorified bodies from this struggle once and for all.
    If there is such a person who can honestly say, "I never experience any such struggle or temptation to sin." Then, I truly envy their position.
    No, we do struggle, God knows that. In reality I thank God for it. For in these struggles I learn humility, and my need for staying close to my Savior, lest I should glory in my flesh and my own strength to overcome.
     
  19. rufus

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    C.S. Murphy, rufus believes like you do. Keep it up, friend. Amen.

    r [​IMG] ufus
     

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