Romans 7:14-25

Pure hot air! No scripture. No evidence. No response to the Biblical evidence I gave. Just pure hot air!

I gave contextual reasons why Romans 7:14-25 does indeed refer to Paul as a saved person and yet you cannot make one substantive response to the Biblical defense!

 

Calvinism has NOTHING to do with exposition of this context. It may help your pride to throw labels around but it does not help your interpretational skills.

First, you ignore that the evil he does is AGAINST HIS WILL - v. 18

Second, you ignore that he has pinpointed the source of doing evil to indwelling sin in "the flesh."

Third, you ignore that he continues to serve God in his mind (v. 25b) WITHOUT SIN because sin is the response of his flesh (v. 25c)

Fourth, you ignore that the CARNAL MIND is not comparable to Paul's mind in Romans 7:25 but instead is at enmity, a state of war against both God and the law of God but Paul with his mind SERVES the law of God and DELIGHTS in the law of God - Rom. 7:23,25.

These are insurmountable BIBLICAL PROOFS that completely repudiate your whole interpretative theory and I do not need to call upon Calvinism nor do I need to throw some label at you to show you are simply wrong.

 

First, you have no response for the previous facts of the context I placed in your face - just more hot air.

Second, you ask what I believe about Paul claiming to be a wretched man! It makes no difference what you believe or what I believe! What matters is what Paul plainly and clearly states.

When a true child of God attempts to handle indwellng sin by his own will power it ends only in frustration and defeat as Paul explicitly states in verse 18 - read verse 18.

So yes, I believe whenever saved persons attempt to handle sin, indwelling sin by their own will power they will always be frustrated and defeated and that frustration is expressed by the words "O wretched man that I am."

However, Paul does not stop with that frustrating expression because he goes on to say "Who shall deliver me from this BODY OF DEATH."

Do you believe saved people have already been delivered from their LITERAL BODY or do they still live in it???? This is your problem with your interpretation. Saved people right now experience BOTH! Whenever they attempt to deal with sin in their own power, they will fail because they are dealing with sin indwelling the flesh, my members, "this body of death" and that is a wretched state of mind. However, when they refuse to deal wiht indwelling sin by their own will power but yeild to the power of the indwelling Spirit then Christ delivers them right then from "THIS BODY OF DEATH" as sin has its seat of power in "THIS BODY" and what they are experiencing when dealing with it by their own will power is "death" or SEPARATION from the power of God indwelling them.

You have no capacity to understand what I am saying because (1) you refuse to honestly and objectively interpret this text; (2) The Holy Spirit has not given you the capacity to interpret it or understand it. (3) You will only continue to spue unsupported hot air speculative personal opinions.

 

Your type is impossible to deal with because you refuse to recognize the scriptures, deal with the scriptures or respond to the scriptures by any kind of exegetical or contextual rational - you simply ignore the Bible text and give your personal opinion as though God were speaking through you instead of through Paul. Hence, it is impossible to deal with people like you from a Biblical perspective as all you give is what you think. The Bible means nothing to your type.

If this is your true confession then you are not a saved person as no genuinely saved person could possibly say this. What you are claiming is that saved persons always "walk in the Spirit" or are always living under the direction of the Holy Spirit, or are always filled withe Spirit (all of these are synonomous with each other) and therefore never could sin because if a person always walked in the Spirit they could not sin unless you charge sin to the Holy Spirit.

You sir are a coward! Instead of responsibly dealing with scriptures that are placed squarely before you, you cowardly ignore them and then excuse your cowardness by throwing the label of "calvinism" so that you will not have to confront and deal with the scriptures that don't support your personal philosophy. Think about it! I have not once called upon Calvin to support a single interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 but based my interpretation strictly upon the wording of Paul and you have not once ATTEMPTED much less been able to deal with the scripture text - not once! Instead you excuse yourself by cowardly throwing labels instead of dealing with the scriptural text. Why? Very simply - you cannot deal with the text because the text repudates your philosophical responses.

Wait a minute!!! You have just previously stated that saved people do not deal with sin after the flesh so why should saved people be encouraged to stop what you claim they cannot do in the first place?????? Glaring contradiction!

However, such encouragement is exactly what we find in scripture (Gal. 5:25) which proves saved people can operate after the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit and thus experience the frustration expressed by Paul not ony in Romans 7:14-25 but also in Galatians 5:15-17.

That is our POSITION by faith in regard to Justification which is displayed in water baptism (Rom. 6:1-6). But did you note the words that follow "that we SHOULD NOT serve sin" rather than "that we WILL NOT serve sin"!!! Do you know the difference? Our POSITION in Christ is obtained by faith and so is our WALK in Christ - "As you received the Lord Jesus Christ so walk ye in Him" - Col. 2:6

You are ignoring the fact that Paul says that he wants to do good according to his "mind" (Rom. 7:25) and according to his mind he "delights in the law of God" as this is IMPOSSIBLE for the lost man's mind - Romans 7:8 - "For the carnal mind is ENMITY against God and is NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD and NEITHER INDEED CAN BE."

The child of God can choose to walk after the Spirit or after the flesh or don't you believe the child of God has a free will???????

That is exactly what he IS saying in his conclusion in Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

All humans die! However, that is not what Paul is speaking about. He is speaking about "THIS BODY OF DEATH" in regard to indwelling sin that all Christians possess because they have not yet been glorified. When a child of God chooses to live after the flesh they suffer EXPERIENTIAL SEPARATION from the blessings of salvation - loss of joy, loss of fellowship, loss assurance, etc. That is one choice. The other choice is to "mortify the deeds of THE BODY, ye shall live" and he is talking about EXPERIENTIAL LIFE - or life more abundantly here and now. The choice is frustration and defeat or victory and blessings HERE AND NOW as a child of God.

That may be your profession but that may not be your reality. Your profession must stand the test of scripture and if you are claiming you can live above sin then the scripture says there is no truth in you (1 Jn. 1:8-10).

 

What a hypocrit! Out of one side of your mouth you call me names that I have never once claimed or quoted and out of the other side of your mouth you complain about being described in unflattering realities. What a hypocrit!

Well, I have a novel idea! Why don't you stop calling me names and address the actual text and the arguments I set forth and I will stop claiming you don't address the text or arguments? Deal?

 

First, Romans 8:7 precedes verses 8-9 which classify all mankind into one of two classes - (1) those in the flesh versus (2) those in the Spirit - THERE IS NO THIRD CLASS as you imagine.

If you are "in the flesh" you are a lost man and this is the man being spoken of in Romans 8:7-8

If you are "in the Spirit" you are a saved man and this is the man being spoken of in Romans 8:9 - There is no third category and I quote:'

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

First, Did Paul or Calvin say the above words? Do you see the words "so then" in verse 8? Paul is drawing a conclusion to verse 7 by the words "so then." The person in verse seven is identified as a those "in the flesh" and the condition in verse 7 is a condition of "in the flesh" and that is why they cannot "please God" because the "carnal mind" which is at "enmity with God" obviously is not trying to please God. Because the "carnal mind" which is "not subject to the law of God" obviously does not "please God." Because the "carnal mind" which "neither indeed can be" simply CANNOT "please God" and "so then they that are IN THE FLESH cannot please God.

So then, the type of person being described in Romans 8:7 is "in the flesh" (v. 8).




9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Did Paul say this or did Calvin? There are only two classes of mankind on planet earth. If you have the Spirit of God indwelling you then you are not "in the flesh" but if you do not have the Spirit of God indwelling you then you are "in the flesh" and "none of his." Hence, those who are "none of His" are all those "in the flesh" and all those "in the flesh" do not have "the Spirit of God" dwelling in them.

Therefore , you are wrong in your interpretation of Romans 8:7. All lost men are "in the flesh" and the one being described in Romans 8:7 are those "in the flesh" (v. 8).

Jn. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Question? Did Calvin say these words or Jesus Christ? Jesus is speaking about all those, every human being that is "condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Does any human being come into the world already believing in Jesus Christ? The obvious answer is no! Hence, all men come into this world "condemned already" because they come in as unbelievers in Christ.

All unbelievers in Christ are the "condemned" and all the "condemned" "loved darkenss....and hateth the light"

So again you are wrong! There are only two classes of human beings on earth - (1) Unbelievers and (2) believers - there is no third class as you suppose. No human being comes into the world believing in Jesus Christ and therefore every human being come into this world as "condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Neither Romans 8:7-9 or John 3:18-20 teach a THIRD class of human beings. All human beings are either (1) believers or (2) Unbelievers and if they are unbelievers they love darkness and hate the light.

All human beings are either (1) in the flesh or (2) in the Spirit and if they are "in the flesh" then they are carnally minded as Romans 8:7-8 says and cannot please God because of that carnal minded state.

However, the man in Romans 7:14-25 is not carnal minded but is spiritually minded. He is not at enmity with God but seeks to please God. He is not at war with the Law of God but delights in the law of God. He does not serve sin with his mind but serves God with his mind.

Here is the Biblical evidence, which I doubt you will even try to address but rather stick to your same game plan which is to assert your position without evidence and call me names in order to justify your conscience.

 

You said that Romans 8:7 does not descibe all the lost! The context demands it does describe all the lost. Romans 8:8 defines the condition of Romans 8:7 to be the mindset of all who are "in the flesh" and the only other kind of people on planet earth are those "in the Spirit"! There is no third class people are lost but are not like those described in Romans 8:7-8. That is a figment of your imagination.

I proved the same thing with John 3:18-20. All lost people hate the light and love darkness because that is the description Jesus gives of ALL UNBELIEVERS and there are only two classes of people on planet earth (1) Unbelievers and (2) believers. Hence, there is no third class or unbelievers that do not hate the light and love the darkness except in the figment of your fertile imagination.

Calvinists are not the only ones that believe Romans 7:14-25 describes Paul as a saved person but operating according to his own flesh. Galatians 5:17 states the same thing and is addressed to SAVED CHURCH MEMBERS in the Galatian congregations.

 

He is experiencing TWO laws not just one! One is the "law of my MIND" while the other is the law "in my MEMBERS"

The destination of "my members" or "the flesh" or "this body" is eventually DEATH is it not?

Second, I don't think you understand that "death" means separation and has a wider application than "spiritual" separation from God or "physical" separation from the body or "eternal" separation in gehenna! There is separation of the soul from the inward man under the dominion of the "law of sin in my members"! There is such a thing as EXPERIENTIAL separation when a child of God sins so that he is SEPARATED from fellowship with God, separated from the joy and peace OF God (not peace with God). There is also EXPERIENTIAL UNION or life when we are walking AFTER the Spirit or filled with the Spirit or UNDER the controlling influence of the Spirit so that we EXPERIENCE the union we have with the Spirit of God - the experience of peace, joy, love, etc.

Here Paul deals with two aspects of our salvation. The first is our position in Christ by justificaiton while the second is the Holy Spirit in us for sanctification. Positionally we have already been delivered from the law of sin and death but we are being delivered progressively by the work of the Holy Spirit IN and THROUGH us as we "walk" in the Spirit. We "live in the Spirit" but we do not always "walk in the Spirit" and that is where we EXPERIENCE union with God and we do not walk in the Spirit we experience separation from the POWER of the indwelling Spirit in our lives. This is the victory Paul anticipated in Romans 7:24 which is only EXPERIENCED by yeilding to the Spirit of God.