Romans 7:14 - Saved or Lost man?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Jul 16, 2014.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Romans 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    QUESTIONS:

    1. Is the body of the saint still subject to the power of sin - death?

    2. The Law is spiritual but is the entire saint spiritual - spirit, soul and body?

    3. Does Paul distinguish between various aspects of his being in regard to what aspect is "sold under sin" and what aspect is not?

    4. Does the unregenerate man have an "inward man" that delights in the Law of God and what aspect of human nature is he referring to, since it would imply he is not referring to the "outward man"?

    5. If the "flesh....this body of death.....my members" are still subject to the power of sin, death and destruction then what aspect of the unregenerated man is not?

    6. How is it that the unregenerated man has "the will is present to do good" if Romans 8:7 is descriptive of the unregenerated man?

    7. How can the unregenerated man say "It is no longer I that" sin but claim the source of sin is "in my flesh"?????

    8. How is it the the "law of sin" is in war with "law of God" in connection with the "inward man" versus "in my flesh"???
     
  2. Yeshua1

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    Paul did not even see Himself as being one who violated the real meaning/intent of the law until he was saved by Lord jesus, and then the commandments showed him that he was not without sin, and yet they were no hope to him, as he tried to keep them now while saved , but ONLY by considering himself now died to the Law, and alive again in Christ, and walking in the Holy Spirit, could he keep them!
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Paul writes as a saved man in every chapter of Romans.
     
  4. DHK

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    Of course he does. And so he says of himself, as a saved man:
    Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    He is a carnal Christian. He is sold under sin. It is the law that is spiritual not Paul. There are times when his old nature gets the best of him, and it is at those times when he refers to himself as carnal, not unsaved, but carnal.
     
  5. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    As I wrote the other day on another thread, Paul writes of himself in the present tense in Romans 7:14-25. Regardless of how anyone might want to twist his words to make it appear he didn't struggle with sin, it is a fact Paul experienced those struggles on a daily basis. Just as we all do.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Dhk

    this as posted is completely unbiblical of course.
     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    The archaic "carnal" is nothing more than stating, as is said in the NASB, to be "in the flesh," i.e., existing (in Romans 7:14 indicated by the words "I am") in the flesh. There is also the interesting nuance of the word as meaning "presenting." In Paul's case here, he means "presenting" in the flesh. So what does that mean?

    Simply, rather than acting in the Spirit, or as he repeatedly contrasts the Christian either "walking in the Spirit" or "walking in the flesh" in Galatians 5, he states he reacts in the flesh rather than reasoning in the Spirit. We all do it. The simple fact of our existence in Christ is presence of the Spirit in exact proximity to the desire of the flesh, and we have the choice, at each juncture of the day, to act on one or the other.
     
    #7 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jul 17, 2014
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  8. Iconoclast

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    thisnumbersdisconnected

    [/QUOTE]
    Correct......before God's holy law Paul knew that his best efforts were as filthy rags. If viewed that way[against God's holy law }...he was hopeless.
    But he goes on to explain that IN Christ something wonderful has happened he does a similar thing in Phil 3....

    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

    8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

    9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

    11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

    13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ
    Jesus.

    15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
     
  9. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Undeniably true, and we as Christians have all experienced that. But as I pointed out, Paul wrote Romans 7:14-25 in the present tense, meaning he still occasionally resorted to fleshly reaction rather than acting in Spiritual reason. By that, I don't mean human reason, but I mean he didn't always allow the Spirit to provide him power, strength and patience to act in the Spirit.

    It is indisputable, just from seeing all our behaviors, that this is true for everyone in Christ. I don't argue the powerful thing done in us at the moment of our salvation. But I also can't deny that I can act in my own fleshly stupidity while the Holy Spirit stands by doing the equivalent of a heavenly face-palm.

    [​IMG]

    In love, of course. :laugh:
     
    #9 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jul 17, 2014
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  10. Iconoclast

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    Failing to obey lawful commands and responsibilities will always result in
    ACTS of sin.....we are not to habitually practice sin ...that is the tension Paul addresses.
     
  11. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    I would submit to you that all sin is habitual. we focus, as Christians, on the "awful sins" we would never do such as alcohol, drug and sexual addiction, smoking, profanity, etc. But we seem to want to draw the line and say it "isn't habitual" that we gossip, talk behind others' backs, lie, fudge on our taxes, or the big one (as far as I'm concerned) saying "I'll be praying for you" and never doing so.

    Sin is sin. I am beginning to sense that the arguments against "habitual sin" are arguments meant to justify "little sins" rather than represent a biblical doctrine. I mean no offense to anyone on this board in saying that. I don't know you other than by what you post. But I do see it among my fellow Christians locally here.

    They are willing to march with signs and demonstrate against abortion, homosexuality and gay marriage, or for prayer in school and freedom of speech and religion. But they do so while hating their enemies, living lifestyles of self-centeredness and self-righteousness that ignore or even justify their prejudices, while speeding to work, cursing the drivers who don't do as they would like them to do while they themselves are gossiping over their phones they should not be using in the car about their fellow church members.

    Equally at fault are those who study judiciously, attend church "religiously" and join Bible discussion groups at every opportunity -- but do absolutely nothing with any of it. Separating from the world is not what Jesus called us to do, and the fountain of knowledge they become is admirable but useless if not put to work in the spreading of the Gospel. Knowing and not telling is as much sin as is actively telling the Gospel while exhibiting the sins of the flesh to the community.

    Habitual sin is a part of who we are and habitual sins are not defined by the self-righteous reactions they elicit from the many Christian. Habitual sins result from our natural state of being.
    Ephesians 2, NASB
    1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
    It is our Father's love for us that put Christ on the cross, and unless His "once for all" sacrifice came up a little short of His desired goal, His sacrifice still holds sway over all our sins. We are all born in sin and born dead in sin. We cannot help but sin. Becoming a Christian has never stopped one Christian from sinning. Sinning is still a habit of the flesh for us all.

    Pornography and all the shame that habit entails, the dangers of smoking to one's health, the damage associated with prescription drug abuse, the addiction to violent outbursts of temper displayed by parents who abuse their spouses and children, the addiction of gossiping and the harm that it does to its out-of-hearing and defenseless victims: Do these sins demand that we judge the guilty as damned and hell bound?

    Honestly, can any one of us say they do not know a Christian who has some kind of addiction, whether "trivial" or serious? Simply dismissing them as "unlikely saved" because they do display serious sin ignores the fact that our sin is just as habitual as is theirs. Sin is addictive. Believing that a Christian who commits some particular sin is going to hell because of his/her sin would be ludicrous. Yet many believe that sin is the proof of one's unregenerate condition. That is equally ludicrous.

    If it were true, then why won't just any sin do? Why does "their sin" in one particular realm -- addiction, anger, sexual promiscuity -- trump our variety of sins that we commit every day? Or perhaps we do have pet sins that will damn us? Are we willing to say that? I doubt it.

    The new creation is new because a sinner once dead in sin has been born again, or born of God. The new creation is not some disembodied supernatural spirit. I know of no one who believes that this new creation is anything other than the Christian. But I feel the point must be made in order to keep in mind the humanity of the believer, the fact that we are at this time in this mortal body. The Holy Spirit through the apostles was writing to living in-the-body believers, many of whom were manifestly weak in the faith.

    A prime example is Paul's child in the faith, Timothy. So is Peter in Galatians 2, the Galatians throughout Paul's epistle to them and the Corinthians. King David, a "man after God's own heart," must not be forgotten as a believer. He can be described no other way. These examples are all of people definitively saved and yet individually and collectively steeped in their own fleshly behavior and willful disobedience. Paul's warnings to them are to repent, not to "get saved again."

    The many exhortations and commands addressed to the church to cease from some particular sin reminds us of our own need for these exhortations and commands. For instance, Paul exhorts the Roman believers "do not be conformed to this world," a warning issued as a negated present imperative in the Greek. The negated present imperative means to stop doing something that you are currently doing, or not to do this act continually. Either way, the weakness of the flesh is being addressed by the apostle. We witness believers on a daily basis being conformed to this world to some degree. What do they need? Condemnation or exhortation? Should we shun them or correct them? Should we instantly separate from them, putting them out of the church? Or is Paul's command to discipline them first?

    Telling them they are unregenerate and hell-bound is not only ludicrous, it is a lie. We need to come along side them disciple them, counsel them, love them, and restore them, as Paul wrote in Galatians 6:1.

    The "new birth," "the new creation," "the born again inner man," is of God. We cannot make the mistake of confusing this "new man" with our fleshly body. Paul clearly makes a distinction in his second letter to the church at Corinth.
    2 Corinthians 4
    16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
    It is this "inner man" who has been sanctified, washed and justified by the grace of God.
    1 Corinthians 6
    11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
    Nonetheless, when the Bible addresses the believer it addresses the whole man, mortal body and born again inner man. We are both mortal in our flesh and eternal in our spirit. In order to effectively deal with the outward man, the "old man," the inner man must be instructed in the ways of God. And in order to effectively deal with the inner man the outward man must be addressed as well. the Word of God does both.
    Romans 8
    10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
    11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


    Romans 8
    16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
    17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
    18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.


    1 Corinthians 15
    45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
    46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
    47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
    49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
    It is clear that it is the "inner man" who "is being renewed day by day." Paul says we call upon the Spirit to "put to death the deeds of the body" (Romans 8:13). Our spirit is what is "made alive" in Christ. Not our mortal bodies. They still die. We are still in the flesh. We may live in the flesh, or in the Spirit. Each day, each minute, we make the choice of which it will be. It is not natural to call upon the Spirit, because "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual." One cannot fault the believer for acting in the flesh instead of reasoning in the Spirit, but one can come alongside him/her that does so and counsel them there is a better way.
     
    #11 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jul 17, 2014
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  12. The Biblicist

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    You are merely making an assertion empty of evidence! What DHK says is perfectly accurate. The text does say the law is "spiritual" but the saved man is not WHOLLY spiritual or else he would not sin at all because what is "spiritual" is "good, holy and righteous" and what has been created in Christ is "righteous and in true holiness" wherein abides no sin (Eph. 2:10; Col. 3:10).

    In verse 15-21 he makes a very clear argument that "my flesh" is the source where the law of sin originates within him rather than "I" after the "inward man." His body is not yet redeemed from sin, it is still "sold under sin" and death proves it, as what is born of God NEVER DIES (Jn. 11:28).

    There is an aspect of the saved man that is "sold under sin" and the absolute proof is that aspect is the only aspect of his humanity that will die - "this body of death."
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    John uses the present tense, continuous action when he said, "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves." Sin is not merely wrong actions, and wrong attitudes but a wrong motive behind both attitude and actions as the only right motive (which determines whether the attitude and action is righteous) is "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Cor. 10:31) as God looks on the heart first.

    So, I agree with you that we are CONTINUOUSLY sinning, thus habitually sinning in regard to OUR OWN PERSON (not our legal position, not our reborn spirit) as we NEVER stop coming short of the glory of God whether it is by sins of ommission or sins of commission.

    That is why we are exhorted to "put on" the inward man and "put off" the old man because because as long as we operate in OUR OWN POWER all that we do is sin.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Jul 17, 2014
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  14. DHK

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    This is the entirety of your post. You simply say it is unbilblical.
    You can't say why. You can't refute the post. You have nothing to offer.
     
  15. Judith

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    Paul is not speaking of himself being carnal while saved. That would make him a hypocrite, and disqualify him or anyone from service as he has made clear in other passages.
     
    #15 Judith, Jul 17, 2014
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  16. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    :thumbsup: Amen, that is my point exactly. Our flesh is dead. Our spirit is alive in Christ. Which do we choose to live by in any given moment? We can choose either, and we do.
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Absolutely! Agreed!:godisgood:
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    what causes us to have those acts of sinning though?

    Our flesh/sinful natures

    new natures in Christ

    Holy Spirit residing within us now
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    That aspect of us, the flesh/sin principle at work in us will get finally eradicated when we have glorified bodies in image of Christ own, not before though..
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    if paul would state that he was always Spiritually, in that he was always in tune with submitting to the holy Spirit though, that would make him a liar, per 1 John, and also disqualifiy him, correct?

    You do not hold that even when saved, we still can do sins if we refuse to obey the Holy Spirit in us now?
     

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