Romans 7, understanding Romans 7:7-25 from chapter 6:16-23

Arbitrary? Yes this would be my judgement of how I see it. A whim? no! I have studied this, as I believe you have as well. We just see it differently. I believe the Calvinist see it this way, because of the teachings of "original sin", but that would be another subject for another thread, of which are many already. Those of us that see this as a lost man see the present tense as historical present tense, as you already know. I would say it is true of Romans 14-25 as well as 6-13.

That would be one reason. To say verse 14 is a saved man is laughable to say the least. When Paul says, I am carnal, he is referring to being of this world, earthy, versus being born from above, spiritual. To be "sold under sin", is to say he is lost. I don't know how much more clear it can be than that. We are not "sold under sin", we have bought with a price, the blood of Christ!

Here again this is just another verse that should confirm Paul is speaking of his past life, or all of our past lives. but how to perform that which is good I find not. Paul goes into detail many places on how to overcome sin, but here he does not know how, so I am to believe this is, Paul the apostle, the man that has scolded many for not walking in truth? WOW!

Romans 7:24;O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Wretchedness is always in Paul's past! "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death", is in this man's present, but it is in a believer's past.
The man here knows where the problem lies, in his flesh. Many people come to this same place of despair and want to be free from what troubles them so much so they commit suicide, so am I to believe everyone that wants to be free from sin so much so that they would commit suicide is saved?
Paul in his excitement of not being this man in Romans 7 any longer thanks God through Jesus Christ our Lord in the next verse before concluding how a man thinks he is justified before God in 25b, By convincing himself as long as he serves God in his mind, all is well. In 25b Paul has brought the reader to the understanding of where they were in 1:18-3:20.
When we see 25a as an interjection, as Paul does a number of times in his writings, we will see this is indeed a lost man trying to be saved or sanctified in his own strength without God.

Galatians is a warning no doubt, as Paul is warning them to stand fast or else. 5:1;Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
I'm not sure if you are saying 5:17 is saying the same thing as is Romans 7, but I'll just give you my understanding of it.

What it is not saying is, I can't overcome sin, because I'm carnal and sold under sin. It is saying even though the flesh lusts against the Spirit the flesh is not able to have it's way, because we walk in the Spirit.

If you do not walk in the Spirit our spirit is not able to overcome on a continual basis, the lusts of the flesh. And if you do walk after the flesh then you will come back under bondage to the flesh. And if you do come back under bondage to the flesh and do not heed the warnings of brothers in Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit, God will call you out of here, as 1 Corinthians shows.

I don't know of anyone here that would even suggest no Christian deals with temptation. In fact we are to count it joy when it comes ,James 1:2; My brethern , count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;. and 1 Peter1:6; Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: Now I don't know that any would count it joy when in the midst of the battle with temptation, but knowing God has already made a way of escape, 1:Corinthians 10:13, we can count it all joy!

I do believe you are adding just your opinion here. Now just to be clear, are you saying a lost man does not have an inward man?, as this is an excepted belief among Calvinist. or are you just saying a lost man's inward man does not delight in the law of God? At any rate both are wrong!
Paul tells us the Jew rested in the law way back in Romans 2:17. "Delight" is simply to have pleasure in. The problem Paul had with the Jews was they were TOO pleased with the law and not pleased enough in Who gave the law!

To say the mark of a saved man is one that "delights" in the law of God is to say Paul was surely wasting his time converting the Jews from law to Faith. You speak as one that law is what saves. I feel as though I am speaking to a pharisee when addressing this issue.

I would not argue with the fact that many Christians have turned back and walked after the flesh and stopped walking in the Spirit. That only proves what? that they were either not saved to begin with or they have fallen back into bondage to the sins of the flesh.

I have never really addressed this issue before, but seeing how you bring it up, I have a question about that passage.
This is used to show that even though we are saved we still have sin in us and if we deny that we don't have sin in us we are calling God a liar. I think that would be a fair assessment of it, correct me if I'm wrong.

But here lies the problem. In 1 John 1:7 we are told we are cleansed from all sin.

The question must be asked here, Is verse 8 addressing a saved man? or is John speaking to someone lost? or maybe he is addressing both saved and lost.

In 1:3 he alludes to maybe he might be speaking to lost folk. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: Is he saying to someone, you can have fellowship with us to and that fellowship is found in the Father and Jesus Christ.

Is this a letter of evangelism? He goes on to say in 2:1;My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. Now we know this is directed directly to the saved, but the next part may be directed to anyone.And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. who is the "any man"? The next verse alludes to the whole world.

Here John is telling us we can be free from sin by coming to Christ, but the Calvinist are singing a different song from what I gather. They would have us to believe we are still carnal, sold unto sin, slaves to sin and that is just the facts of life, so live with it. I'm so glad I have an English Bible I can read for myself, pray for understanding and be lead by the Spirit!

Thank you Jesus for cleansing me from my sin!!!

 

Romans 6:16; Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Here Paul makes a statement of logic that anyone could relate to, just as he does in 7:1.
Here Paul is beginning to reiterate his main points he started in chapter 1. In chapters 1:18-3:20 Paul begins showing us how man has gotten in the mess he has. In these chapters we see man making one choice after another. The first wrong choice is 1:21;Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Our first mistake is when we think we don't need God and we can do just fine without Him. When we know God or know of God and do not glorify Him for who He is and then add insult to injury by not even being thankful for all He has done for us we have broken even our own standard of conduct. Here in the south it is basic understanding that we thank folks for even the smallest of things, such as when someone opens the door or holds the door for even a stranger, but then we don't give thanks to God for all He has done for us? I'm not saying it is a sin to do those things for our fellow man, but when a man will thank another man for things such as this, but then we don't do it for our creator, I would say we have our priorities upside down.
When we turn away from God and are not thankful, where else can a man go but into sin?
Paul goes through a list of things that anyone, well, most anyone, would be in agreement that those that do such things are indeed worthy of death. Paul does this to cause one to judge and condemn others, but then he turns the table on them and says in 2:1;Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Paul reminds us that God's judgement is according to thruth, whereas ours may be biased.
He then tells us in 2:6-11 basically what he has told us in 6:16. It is how one lives their life that determines whether or not they are servants of righteousness or servants of sin. Depending on which one determines life or death.

Romans 6:17;But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Here Paul picks up where he did in 3:21 saying "But now" leading up to what has saved us, faith in Jesus Christ.
Paul makes a contrast between our old lost condition brought on by our works to our new relationship with God. He gives thanks to God that sin is not our master any longer, but that we have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine that saved us. That form of doctrine that we believed from the heart and delivered us is faith. When you go back and read 3:21-4:25 we see faith is what God has been trying to get man to come to. So go back and read 3:21-4:25 and 5:1 and 2. Paul picks this up again in 9:30. So read 9:30 through the end of chapter 10.

Romans 6:18;Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Again Paul tells us we are free from sin. We are free from sin because we have been justified by faith, Romans 5:1. We are not servants of sin, but servants of righteousness. Romans 5:21;That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:19;For I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: As in many of Paul's letters it seems that he never could speak to them as he really wished he could, so he spoke to them as if they had never heard the gospel before, reminding them of things they have already heard. Romans chapter 6 is no exception, as we read even in 6:1 and 2 and then saying in v:3 Know ye not, as though he was reminding them of something they already had been taught and knew before he even said it again.
for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. In the same way we lived in sin by giving ourselves completely over to the lusts of the flesh, we are to now to give ourselves over to righteousness. This comes on the heels of What Paul says in this chapter. 6:1; shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 6:2; God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? And again Paul asks the question, What then?shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? His answer comes with a resounding No! God forbid. He tells us we are dead to sin, because we have been baptized into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Because of these truths how can we live in sin? After everything God has done for us? No, we are to now walk in righteousness!

Romans 6:20 and 21 being in the past tense reminds us of where we once were. It also being in chronological order of Paul reiterating his main points he is addressing here we can easily see this is the man of Romans 7.
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
The man of Romans 7 was very aware of his sinfulness, but could not find the way to overcome, leaving him to wanting to be free from the body of flesh that was dragging him down.

Romans 6:22 and 23;But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. By being made free from sin by obeying the form of doctrine delivered us, Faith, And being justified by the blood of Christ, and being taken out of Adam and placed in Christ by that faith, we have been crucified with Christ and are now dead to sin, we now have freedom to walk in righteousness unto holiness by walking in the Spirit and the end is eternal life.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.