Romans 7, understanding Romans 7:7-25 from chapter 6:16-23

Well if you believe it is hypothetical then verse 7 must be also and no one is going to be forgiven or cleansed, correct? :thumbsup:

 

have to take a step furhter back on this discussion!

Do we ALL agree with the Bible that even though saved and have new natures, HS residing in us, that we all still have ole flesh/sin principle still dwelling in us?

Wonder if FAL holds to us JUST having one nature now as saved persons?

IF so, that might explain his problem reconciling flesh and new natures, as we would JUST have new natures?

 

If it is HYPOTHETICAL in 6 then it has to be HYPOTHETICAL in 7. Are you sure you want to go that route? Grammar you know.

 

He is simply saying "If" we do A then B will be the consequence. A set of hypothetical actions and consequences.


6 (A) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness
(B) we lie, and do not the truth:


7 (A) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,
(B) we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


8 ¶ (A) If we say that we have no sin,
(B) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 (A) If we confess our sins,
(B) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 (A) If we say that we have not sinned,
(B) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

Why bother is it is hypothetical?

 

John presents a hypothetical statement found in verses 6, 8, 10 that demand negative consequences.

John presents hypothetical statements found in the verses of 7 and 9 that demand positive consequences.

The hypothetical nature is that he is neither asserting or denying these things are realities in regard to "we" but simply presenting necessary negative and postive conclusions if they are true.


For example, take verse 6. IF we say we have fellowship with him but in addition to that claim we walk in darkness (the hypothetical assertion) then the necessary NEGATIVE conclusion in regard to "we" is "we lie, and do not the truth.

For example, take verse 7. In contrast ["but"]to that NEGATIVE hypothetical consideration in verse 6 IF the following is true - "we walk in the light" then the necessary postive conclusion is also true - "we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin"


This is the hypothetical pattern he follows in verses 6-10. Verse 6 sets forth the hypothetical contrast followed by a negative conclusion while verse 7 responds in a postive contrast and postive conclusion.

Verse 8 sets forth the hypothetical negative followed by a necessary negative conclusion while verse 9 responds sets forth a postive hypothetical assertion followed by a necessary postive conclusion.

Verse 10 sets forth a hypothetic negative assertion followed by a necessary negative conclusion.


6 (A) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness(B) we lie, and do not the truth:


7 (A) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,
(B) we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


8 ¶ (A) If we say that we have no sin,
(B) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 (A) If we confess our sins,
(B) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 (A) If we say that we have not sinned,
(B) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

Let me ask again.
Why bother if it is hypothetical? Hypothetical means it is possible but not likely. Why would John bother with somehting that is not happening and most likely would not?

 

This is simply a method to teach. The teacher presents a hypothetical case and then responds with necessary negative and postive conclusions. Teachers use this method all the time.

 

You mean Sort of like the government making seat belt laws back in the 1700's to teach the people that driving a car could be dangerous even though there was no such thing as a car, correct? hypothetical! :laugh:

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

I simply mean it is a very common method used in teachng and that is what John is doing - teaching.

 

If that were remotely true, I wouldn't be using God's Word to make my points but simply giving you my personal observations. Get real!

No, you are in denial of your own reality while confusing two equally Biblical truths. Let's deal first with your own reailty. Are you sinless? If reality is that all your sins have been taken care of completely and fully then you should be sinless. Will you escape death? If sin and all of its power has been taken care of completely at the cross in regard to your reality then you should never suffer PHYSICAL death.

So obviously, that is not your reality is it? You are not sinless. You are suffering consequences of sin (aging, disease) and you will physically die won't you?? So my reality is your reality.

Now, let's talk about God's reality. God sees things from three different perspectives. First he sees us as we really are - still unfinished and in the process of becoming transformed to the image of Christ. Second, He sees us how we will become after glorification due to his purpose. Third, he sees us POSITIONALLY in Christ.

Romans 7 introduces our LEGAL position in Christ in regard to the Law. In Christ we are dead to sin, positionally we are already "seated in heavenly places IN CHRIST Jesus." However, that is not our current PERSONAL reality is it?

Now lets take a look at your abuse of Scriptures:

Note the word "reckon"! That word would be unnecessary if you were actually dead to sin in regard to your own person in time and space reality. Just as it would be silly to tell Christians to "put on the new man" or "put off the old man" if that had no actual practical application to their reality as persons in time and place.

 

So you say, but you are side stepping my question. What good is a teaching it if the thing mentioned is not a problem or most likely will never be a problem? And on what you say is the positive side what good is it if those things are not happening?

 

Because all who profess do not possess (1 Jn. 2:19). This epistle is written so that the reader might "know" they are saved and might "know" how to recognize those who profess Christ but are lost.

 

The Biblicist you say If that were remotely true, I wouldn't be using God's Word to make my points but simply giving you my personal observations. Get real!

You are pointing to God's word but you are still giving personal observations that do not agree with the word.

No, you are in denial of your own reality while confusing two equally Biblical truths. Let's deal first with your own reailty. Are you sinless? If reality is that all your sins have been taken care of completely and fully then you should be sinless. Will you escape death? If sin and all of its power has been taken care of completely at the cross in regard to your reality then you should never suffer PHYSICAL death.

Why does everyone jump on the sinless wagon? No one even suggests we are sinless. I think You do that to confuse the issue. You are not understanding the scriptures. Do you remember the teaching about putting new wine in old wine skins. Well that is what has happened to us. We are new creatures in these old wine skins and one day they will burst asunder (we will die). Though the flesh has been crucified it is not redeemed. So until that time we do not have to sin. All our sin is a choice.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

So obviously, that is not your reality is it? You are not sinless. You are suffering consequences of sin (aging, disease) and you will physically die won't you?? So my reality is your reality.

Like I said the flesh has been crucified with Christ, but it has not been redeemed.

Now, let's talk about God's reality. God sees things from three different perspectives. First he sees us as we really are - still unfinished and in the process of becoming transformed to the image of Christ. Second, He sees us how we will become after glorification due to his purpose. Third, he sees us POSITIONALLY in Christ.

Romans 7 introduces our LEGAL position in Christ in regard to the Law. In Christ we are dead to sin, positionally we are already "seated in heavenly places IN CHRIST Jesus." However, that is not our current PERSONAL reality is it?

Romans 7 is speaking to those who know the law. Your exegesis is really an eisogetes

Now lets take a look at your abuse of Scriptures:

Note the word "reckon"! That word would be unnecessary if you were actually dead to sin in regard to your own person in time and space reality. Just as it would be silly to tell Christians to "put on the new man" or "put off the old man" if that had no actual practical application to their reality as persons in time and place.

You do not understand the Greek word translated "reckon." Here is what it means;
This word deals with reality. If I reckon (logizomai) that my bank book has $25 in it, it has $25 in it. Otherwise I am deceiving myself. This word refers more to fact than supposition or opinion.

Then Paul says since you now know this;
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
That is reality!

 

But you said it was hypothetical! What you are saying cannot be true if it is hypothetical since it is not happening. Hypothetical means it has not happened and is not happening. How does somehting that is not happening and not going to happen justify writing the verses you claim are hypothetical?

 

Can you see into the heart of anyone? No! So how do you tell the difference between the true beleiver and the false professing beleiver? You cannot make any direct charge so you set forth principles in a hypthetical fashion and "IF" they fit they fit and "IF" they don't they don't. People who fit these principles are people who profess but do not possess.

 

Here is where you whole theory breaks down. Instead of dealing with this actual and real problem you simply brush it off and go on as though it does not ACTUALLY and REALLY describe your present reality in time and space.

You in reality do sin and you in reaity do die. Hence, sin in regard to its presence and power IN YOUR OWN LIFE in time and space has not been removed by the cross and won't be until your are glorified. THAT IS YOUR REALITY whether you like or not or admit it or not and that is the archilles heel of your whole theory. You are no more free from the presence and power of sin right now in time and space as your are actually and really already "seated in heavenly places." You POSITIONALLY are in heaven "in Christ" and you POSITIONALLY have died with Christ at the Cross.

 

So we need to have hypothetical scripture for this? Now that is rich! You might want to take a rest as I can tell you are getting low on ammo and may even be a little shell shocked because you ain't thinking straight. :laugh: