Romans 8:13 and 8:17

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8:13).

    How exactly will they DIE?

    if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him (8:17).

    Pretty conditional isn't it?

    Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

    You will reap what you sow.

    For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.... on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:5-16).

    No favoritism on Judgment Day. No favoritism.
     
  2. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    NO favoritism on judgment day.

    NO favoritism.

    God will NOT be judging anyone by any kind of STATUS.

    Self-proclaimed Christian on judgment day: Hi God, I am a Christian and have Christian status so let me in now.

    God: Um, I am no respector of persons son. This judgment is not by status but by works without favoritism or partiality. You should know that.
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    WRONG! There are two judgments:

    The first judgment is of our deeds, which include both good and evil works that we have done. All mankind faces this judgement.

    The Second judgment is of All who Lack FAITH! You see, FAITH is something we either have, or we don't! There is no such thing as almost having it!

    The Judgment of our FAITH STATUS is the eternal judgement, and those who believe in Jesus the Christ do not face this judgement, John 3:18, but Pass from death (of the flesh) into everlasting life. ALL others face judgment for not having faith in the Christ! And the judgment is this, Those whose names are not found in the book of life are CAST into the Lake of Fire, an eternal second death. Meaning that one who goes there receives death of the spirit, and it is final for all of eternity. One who is so judged does not get a second chance, because it is the second death, the first being the death of the flesh, the second being the death of spirit. Yes, it is torment, but only momentary because it is DEATH, and it is final in that no one who is sent there ever returns. No spirit cast into the lake of fire ever escapes, because the spirit ceases to have life.

    Life only exists for those who have FAITH in the Source of Life.
     
  4. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Ben.

    That's right. My Jesus found that out for me.
    ISA 28:9 "Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast? 10 For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there." 11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"--but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there--so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

    johnp.
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    LK 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

    LK 16:25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

    LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

    LK 16:29 "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

    LK 16:30 " `No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

    LK 16:31 "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

    johnp.
     
  6. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Ben.

    ...not by works but by him who calls... Romans 9:12.

    You must be perfect if you want no favouritism. According to the law you will go to Hell O selfrighteous one.

    johnp.
     
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Johnp,
    Is that an allagory?
    The point being made is that if the people will not hear Moses and the prophets, they will not hear one sent from among "the dead" either. And yes it is allagorical! Doesn't Revelation 20 say that hell and hades will be emptied and those there will be judged and cast into the lake of fire, the second death?
     
  8. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    No spirit cast into the lake of fire ever escapes, because the spirit ceases to have life.

    No that is only your hope but your hope is without foundation. Hell is punishment for ever and ever. You cannot seperate the Lake of Fire and Hell and neither can you make a covenant with death. He will punish forever those He hates.

    johnp.
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    Is ALL judgment based on those God hates?
     
  10. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    No it doesn't it says, "...and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done."
    Then the goats will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is Hell and there they will be tortured forever. Cessation of existence does not exist. It was invented for the selfrighteous to heap up their sins and goes against scripture.
    Cessation of existence is alluring. You won't escape Him ever. He is your Sovereign. He owns you to do as He pleases with. You cannot escape Him so easily as ceasing to exist which is your only hope. You will be forever dying or forever living and there is no inbetween and no emergency exit.

    johnp.
     
  11. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    Not all. Mine was visited on Jesus.

    johnp.
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp.
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    :cool: e-mail notice
     
  13. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    IF you are living according to the flesh, you will die; but IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8:13).

    How exactly will they DIE? What must they do to ensure that they will live?

    IF children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, []bIF[/b] indeed we suffer with Him (8:17).

    Does it say, "IF children, then also heirs, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ because we will suffer with him?"

    NO.
     
  14. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Ben,
    What is your objective in this topic?

    Why do you insist on taking scripture out of context? What would you prove by doing so?

    [ March 01, 2005, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Wes, Outwest ]
     
  15. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Well well Wes. Show us how the context is going to help you solve this one. have fun.
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    For one thing Ben Elohim, You fail to accept the Atonement for sin brought to us by God's Gift of Love for the world that Jesus is. All sin has been Atoned. Man does not die for Sin, Sin has already been paid for! It is only the lack of faith that causes man to die the second death, and not sin.

    The reason is quite simple, Whan man has faith, man can overcome the need to sin! Jesus told us that it is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer. If it is the spirit that gives life, "the spirit controls the flesh", so those who continue in sin have not submitted their spirit to the Christ. And since those same ones wear their sins as filthy rags, they shall go to their death still "in their sins". Those who have submitted our spirit to the Christ, have the power to overcome the sins of the flesh.

    It seems as though you are trying to prove that sin retains power over man, when scriptures clearly tells us that sin and death have been defeated. So what's your point?
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Wes;
     
  18. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    1 Sam 3:5 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " :cool:
    Sorry Wes this is not for your information just information. There is another in Isaiah.
    ISA 22:12 The Lord, the LORD Almighty, called you on that day to weep and to wail, to tear out your hair and put on sackcloth. 13 But see, there is joy and revelry, slaughtering of cattle and killing of sheep, eating of meat and drinking of wine! "Let us eat and drink," you say, "for tomorrow we die!" 14 The LORD Almighty has revealed this in my hearing: "Till your dying day this sin will not be atoned for," says the Lord, the LORD Almighty.
    Limited Atonment is scriptural. :cool:
    The wages of sin is death.
    RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    RO 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

    johnp.
     
  19. johnp.

    johnp.
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    ILUVLIGHT.

    Is it coming back?

    johnp.
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    Johnp,
    Is 1 Sam 3:5 your favorite verse? Then why don't you quote it correctly?
    You go on with,
    Since God limited man's lifespan to 120 years, The Lord Almighty's "curse" upon them could not have extended beyond that life span, because he says "Till your dying day..."

    The Atonement of the Christ covers ALL sin in ALL times and it came centuries later, and was completely UNIVERSAL, so that even those whom Jesus went to preach to after his death and before His Resurrection were covered by the Atonement for sin by God the Son, so that whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish but have everlasting life TOO!

    But remember the Atonement is not what saves, it is faith in God through which we are saved!
     

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