Romans 8:24

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Deacon, Nov 17, 2007.

  1. Deacon

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    We are saved "by hope" or saved "in hope".

    Examining a number of versions, there seems to be two different renderings of this verse.

    For we are saved by hope:
    but hope that is seen is not hope:
    for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    Romans 8:24 AV 1873

    For in this hope we were saved.
    Now hope that is seen is not hope.
    For who hopes for what he sees?

    Romans 8:24 ESV

    Is the difference significant???

    Rob
     
  2. LeBuick

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    Notice something similar in this part of each verse?

    Heb 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
     
  3. Rippon

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    TNIV : For in this hope we were saved . But hope that is seen is no hope at all . Who hopes for what they already have ?

    HCSB : Now in this hope we were saved , yet hope that is seen is not hope , because who hopes for what he sees ?

    NLTse : We were given this hope when we were saved . ( If we already have something , we don't need to hope for it .

    Regarding Hebrews 11:1...

    TNIV -- certain(ty)
    HCSB -- proof ( footnote : Or conviction )
    NLTse --assurance
     
  4. John of Japan

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    The ending of the Greek word for hope here, ελπιδι, can be either instrumental or locative. So either translation here ("in" or "by") is valid. "In" would be the locative interpretation and "by" would be the instrumental interpretation. Personally I would go with the instrumental, but I can't condemn the locative. A. T. Robertson says it can be dative also, "for hope." Hmm.
     
  5. Deacon

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    Good comments,

    I had to look up the different cases; Greek, uggggh.

    Locative is a case which indicates a location. It corresponds vaguely to the English prepositions "in", "on", "at", and "by".

    The instrumental is a grammatical case used to indicate that a noun is the instrument or means by or with which the subject achieves or accomplishes an action. The noun may be either a physical object or an abstract concept.

    The dative is a grammatical case generally used to indicate the noun to whom something is given.

    Not being divisive here, just curious...I've never heard anyone say, 'we are saved by hope'.
    Do you think translating one case over the other is important?
    Is one correct and the others incorrect?
    ... or is translating the case tense left to the reader to determine?

    Many thanks LeBuick for remindings me about Heb 11 :BangHead:

    This lead me to look at James 2:14-26
    So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    James 2:17 ESV

    Faith and hope seem so intertwined.

    In my favorite scripture verses the Apostle John reiterate Pauls comment.

    See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are.
    The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
    Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
    And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

    1 John 3:1-3 ESV

    Rob
     
  6. John of Japan

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    First of all, please know that the Greek "save" (sozo) often does not mean eternal salvation from sin. If fact, Friday I translated a verse where it meant "to heal" in one of the miracles of Jesus in Luke.

    In this case, note the word "for" (Gr. gar) at the beginning of v. 24. It connects us strongly to v. 23, with v. 24 then giving the reason for v. 23. In v. 23 we see that this hope is not for lost people to be saved from sin, but for saved people with the Holy Spirit, the hope of the redemption of our body. So the salvation by hope (or "for hope" or "in hope") is salvation from despair as I read it--that is, that Christ will never come or something similar. God saves us from despair by means of hope so that we don't need to sorrow as others do who have no hope (1 Thess. 4:13).

    As for what is the correct translation, in this case each possibility we've given is a valid translation, supported by the grammar. What the translator must do is try to ignore his own presuppositions or theology, and do a straight exegesis of the passage. Hopefully the exegesis will point him in the right direction.

    Many times the original has these ambiguous passages. If at all possible, the ambiguity should be preserved in the translation, following the principle that the meaning intended by the divine Author comes before the possible understanding of the reader. To put it more simply, maybe God intended the ambiguity to be there so we would think more deeply about the meaning! However, in this passage I don't see any way to preserve the ambiguity in the English translation, so you have to go with your exegesis.
     
    #6 John of Japan, Nov 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2007
  7. franklinmonroe

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    This is a slight misquote: the ESV actually states "in this hope" which is significant. The verse is referring to a particular "hope" (there is more than one). When the verse is put into its context, it seems to be referring back to this "hope" being discussed beginning in verse 20 (Romans 8:20-24, ESV) --
    For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
    that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
    For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
    And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
    For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?​

    Interestingly, the KJV renders verse 20 thus --
    For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,​
     
    #7 franklinmonroe, Nov 19, 2007
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  8. TCGreek

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    1. Very critical to understand the difference. Thanks, John. :thumbs:

    2. That is why a person shouldn't purchase a Bible that doesn't translate conjunctions and connectives like gar and so on.

    3. A great use of gar at this point--truly faithful to the text and Paul's train of argument.

    4. Great counsel.

    5. A reminder of a great principle !

    6. I personally go for tn gar elpidi as instrumental and esothemen I would translate as "preserve" because of the context.

    7. Notice also, that tn gar elpidi is a further explanation of what we anticipate in v. 23: adoption, the redemption of our bodies--in that sense, we are preserved by this hope of ours--the redemption of our bodies--it ties in quite well with 1 John 3:1-3.
     
    #8 TCGreek, Nov 19, 2007
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  9. John of Japan

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    I think "preserve" is a good translation here. :thumbs:
     
  10. John of Japan

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    The interesting thing is that we have different Greek constructions in vv. 20 and 24. We've already discussed the construction of v. 24, but in v. 20 we have a preposition together with "hope," thus: ep' elpidi, or literally "upon hope." In order to keep it simple (since BADG has 7 1/2 columns on this preposition), here is what Strong says about epi (note that here elpidi is still dative/instrumental/locative):

    "a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively)."
     
  11. TCGreek

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    eph' elpidi, I think should go with the following as in the NASB, "In hope that the creation itself..." rather than the KJV, for it makes a lot more sense. The KJV got it wrong here.
     
  12. Deacon

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    Sorry I haven't been contributing much lately.
    I'm have to share my computer with my 2 1/2 year-old grandson,
    He's addicted to Thomas and Friends and Sesame Street on-line.
    It's totally unbelieveable the way he moves and clicks the mouse.
    Who am I to kick the little genius off the computer?

    “Preserved” works well: the word “saved” carries so much theological baggage, which was why I questioned the translation.

    I was comparing a number of translations, the ESV happened to be one of many in that group.
    [Also note the preposition attached to the word saved.]

    Group 1a [in hope]
    For in hope were we saved: - ASV
    For in hope we were saved. NET, YLT
    For in this hope we were saved. RSV, ESV
    For in hope we were saved. NAB, NIV, NRSV
    For we were saved in this hope, NKJV
    For we have been saved in hope, - Darby
    For in hope we have been saved, NAS95

    Group 1b
    Now in this hope we were saved, HCSB
    It is in hope that we have been saved. Weymouth

    Group 2 [by hope]
    For we are saved by hope: AV 1873
    For it was by hope that we were saved; GNT
    And this hope is what saves us. CEV

    Group 3 [misc]
    For we were saved with this hope in mind. ISV
    We were saved, and we have this hope. NCV
    We were given this hope when we were saved. NLT

    Rob
     
  13. John of Japan

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    This is a definite possibility. Maybe this is one of the places where the horse got stubborn as old Stephanus was putting in verse numbers while he rode, thus causing him to get the verse division wrong.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. TCGreek

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    Hi John,

    Yes, I would like to think so--as you know, these prepositional phrases can be quite tricky, presenting the translator with uncanny challenges.

    p.s. Are you the rider on the horse? :laugh:
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    "Oh, bury me noooooooot on the lone prarieeeeeeee (clipity clop),
    May I read the Woooooooord, for eternityyyyyyy!" [​IMG]
     
  16. franklinmonroe

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    I offer a slightly different arrangement of the same items--

    Group 1 in hope
    For in hope were we saved: ASV
    For in hope we were saved. NET, YLT
    For in hope we were saved. NAB, NIV, NRSV
    For we have been saved in hope, Darby
    For in hope we have been saved, NAS95
    It is in hope that we have been saved. Weymouth

    Group 2 by hope
    For we are saved by hope AV 1873
    For it was by hope that we were saved; GNT

    Group 3a in this hope
    Now in this hope we were saved, HCSB
    For in this hope we were saved. RSV, ESV
    For we were saved in this hope, NKJV

    Group 3b misc+this hope
    And this hope is what saves us. CEV
    For we were saved with this hope in mind. ISV
    We were saved, and we have this hope. NCV
    We were given this hope when we were saved. NLT
     

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