Romans 8:8

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 10, 2013.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Rom. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    We know "they that are in the flesh" are explicitly stated in verse 9 to be "none of his." So "they that are in the flesh" refers to all who are "none of his" or all who are not "in the Spirit" as the phrase "in the Spirit" is placed in contrast to those who are "in the flesh."

    There is no THIRD category between being "in the flesh" and being "in the Spirit."

    Verse 8 is the direct application of verse 7 to those "in the flesh" as an explanation why they "cannot please God." Hence, that very explanation declares the "carnal mind" is a STATE or CONDITION that "cannot" (not "may not") please God, and that STATE or CONDITION describes the fallen nature not the new creature or regenerated nature.

    Who can argue that verse 7 is a product of "the Spirit" or the regenerate new man?
     
  2. The Biblicist

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    Romans 8:7 is descriptive of the fallen nature that is characteristic of those "in the flesh" (v. 8) as well as the fallen nature still active within the child of God who may yeild to it as much as yeild to the Spirit as clearly demanded by Romans 6. In Romans 6 Paul exhorts believers not to yeild to the flesh, which is senseless if that were not possible.
     
  3. Skandelon

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    Until the redemption of our bodies, we are all in the flesh. This simply means that while acting in the flesh (carnally, which even the brethren do at times) we will not please the father. It says nothing about our inability to respond to him in faith to gain life.
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    My friend that is not the meaning of the phrase "in the flesh" as it is used in direct contrast to the phrase "in the Spirit." Those born "of the flesh" are "in the flesh" but those born "of the Spirit" are "in the Spirit."

    It refers to two different natures that originate with two different births. The material "flesh" is not what Paul refers to in Romans 8:7 but rather the "law of sin" operating in the flesh that came with the birth "of the flesh" and thus the fallen nature which "IS" by nature characterized in Romans 8:7.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    The biblical truth is that God cannot and does not merely reform our base nature, it "kills" it upon the cross, and that we have new natures in christ, and have to recognise that truth of old nature has no hold on us IF we agree with God that it was crucified with Christ on the Cross!
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    The fallen nature is alive and well within our flesh and operates as the "law of sin" in direct enmity with the law of the Spirit (Rom. 7:18-22). Both natures are real and present and active. The only way to overcome indwelling sin is by the resurrection life of Christ which is not subject to the law of sin and is accessed by faith through yeilding to the indwelling Spirit of Christ to mortify the deeds of the body (Rom. 8:12-13). The indwelling Spirit of God is the only thing that can overpower the law of indwelling sin in our flesh as our own will is incapable of overpowering the law of sin (Rom. 7:18).
     
  7. Yeshua1

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    true that we are still have fallen natures, but also true that as Christians, we have the means via our new natures submitting to the holy spirit to reckon ourselves as having died to that fallen nature, and been made alive in christ!

    many still trying to just reform and prop up old nature, like mind over matter, God ewants us to make sure it gets daily seen as dead and crucifed in Christ, and live as the new man in christ now

    Just stating trhis, as some who deny that we are sinners and under wrath/judgement seem to see us as being basically humans with "ok" natures, nit really damaged that badly int he fall, and that God sorta works in and thru that flesh to save us!
     
    #7 Yeshua1, Dec 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2013
  8. Winman

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    Man is more than flesh;

    Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    This was spoken of the disciples before they received the Holy Spirit, and so describes the natural spirit a man is born with.

    Jesus said in their spirit they were "indeed willing" to be obedient and stay awake and pray with him as he had asked, but their flesh exerted a powerful influence over them and caused them to repeatedly fall asleep.

    So, Romans 8 is speaking of when a man gives his supreme attention to his fleshly or "carnal" nature. At these times a man cannot possibly please God. This however does not prove he cannot attend to spiritual matters as Matthew 26:41 shows.

    It is like a man staring at a young girl on the beach in a bikini. When he does this he cannot possibly please his wife, it is IMPOSSIBLE. That does not mean he cannot look away and please his wife.
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    Agreed!:thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  10. Winman

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    What the scriptures mean by that the old nature cannot serve righteousness is this:

    When we sinned, we were sold under sin, just like a slave in the ancient market. Now you are sin's possession, he owns you. No matter what you do, good or bad, he has one wage for you, that is death.

    The moment you trust Jesus you die with him to sin and are raised with him to life. You no longer belong to sin and he no longer has dominion over you.

    Now you can serve righteousness and be rewarded for it, whereas before you could not.

    These scriptures are not saying a person is compelled to sin. Likewise, even when you are saved you are not compelled to do right. What you do is your choice. But when you belonged to sin you were free from righteousness and could not serve it.

    Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Verse 20 is simply saying that when you were sold under sin, nothing you could do could free you from this domination. You were under the law, and the law demands perfection. So whether you did good or bad, you served sin.

    Now we have been freed from sin with his wage of death. Now we can serve righteousness and be rewarded for that.

    If you understand that Paul is using the analogy of a slave sold in the slave market in chapter 6, it becomes amazingly simple to understand.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    I understand that, but you have been born in the Spirit, yet you can still act in the flesh, right? Are you pleasing God when you do that? Of course not, you as a believer cannot please God in the flesh, but does that mean you can't choose to resist temptation and act in accordance with the Spirit?
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Romans 6 clearly and expressly teaches that the redeemed man still can yeild to the flesh or the Spirit and therefore remnants of the fleshly nature have not been removed from the complete person of the saved man.

    Second, the human body, the flesh, is not the object of regeneration. The object of regeneration is the spirit of man (Jn. 3:6) not the flesh. The flesh is still sold under sin, still the servant of sin, still subject to death due to sin (Rom 7:24) and still has the "law of sin" operating in it (Rom. 7:18).

    You are simply misapplying regeneration to the "flesh" which it has no application and the flesh is not redeemed and shall not be redeemed at any time in this present life but only in the resurrection and glorificaton because it is still sold under sin. In contrast when the body dies that aspect born of the Spirit "never dies, believest thou this?" - Jn. 11;28

    Only by confusing things that differ can you support your interpretation of Romans 6-8. You make the flesh, the body, the object of regeneration when the body, the flesh is not the object of regeneration.
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    Think his point that ONLY the saved have that option, as while yet sinners, in the flesh, NONE can choose to coperate with God by act of our will, it takes God Himself by the Holy Spirit working on and in us to get us enabled and able to do that!
     
  14. Skandelon

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    Why not? Couldn't God give the lost that option if He so chose?
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    the saved man has both natures but cannot over power the old nature except operating "in the Spirit". That proves the power of indwelling sin and its nature as expressed in Romans 8:7-8.
     
  16. Winman

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    Romans 6 clearly shows that the unregenerate can obey the gospel;

    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Read these verses carefully;

    #1 Ye were the servants of sin

    #2 Ye have obeyed that form of doctrine delivered you (the gospel). The person is still a servant of sin at this point.

    #3 Being "then" (after you obeyed) made free from sin. This shows being made free from sin occurs AFTER obeying the gospel, not before.

    #4 Ye "became" servants of righteousness. Again, this shows being regenerated occurs after a sinner obeys the gospel, not before.

    This doesn't show a person being regenerated and then obeying the gospel, it shows the exact opposite. It shows that while a person was a servant of sin that they obeyed the gospel. AFTER obeying the gospel they were regenerated and "became" a servant of righteousness.

    These verses absolutely show that the unregenerate can obey the gospel, and that after they obey or believe the gospel they are made free from sin and become servants of righteousness.

    These verses utterly destroy Calvinism.
     
    #16 Winman, Dec 11, 2013
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  17. The Biblicist

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    You forgot one little phrase - "you were FREE from righteousenss" and thus they were "servants" of unrighteousness. However, what is born of God is created in righteousness and true holiness and serves the law of God. However, that is not true of their unredeemed, unregenerated aspect - the flesh.
     
  18. Skandelon

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    So, the saved man has contra-causal freedom to choose whether or not to sin or refrain from sinning...to please God or not please God?
     
  19. quantumfaith

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    It is "discussions" like this that make me so thankful to have "contra-causally" chosen to study mathematics rather than theology.

    :)
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    He has a dual nature. However, he has not power in and of himself, or his own will power to over rule indwelling sin, or the law of sin operating in the old nature. His only escape from the character of the fallen nature defined in Romans 7:18-20 and 8:7-8 is by faith to "yeild" to the Holy Spirit (Rom. 6) and to trust in the indwelling Spirit to mortify the fleshly nature (Rom. 8:12-13).
     
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