Romans 8 exegesis

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MrJim, Jun 17, 2007.

  1. MrJim

    MrJim
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    I'll post part of the chapter here:

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

    Verse 13 is the one I'm after--KJV puts it this way

    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    Tell me all about the nature of killing the "deeds of the body" and the apparent conditional nature of failing to kill the deeds of the body.
     
  2. Zenas

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    Romans 8:13 only presents a problem for those who believe in eternal security (OSAS). If you do, you have to regard "death" in this verse as physical death, not eternal death. However, if you believe in conditional security (Galations 5:4), this verse needs no interpretation. This is only one of many passages that demonstrate the error of belief in OSAS.
     
  3. Scarlett O.

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    I think you have to back up into the chapter 7 to get the full effect of what 8:13 means in its complete context.

    (my paraphrasing....you may disagree)

    Romans 7:7-14 - The law serves a great and holy purpose, but it ain't gonna save you. It can't. All it can do is show you that you are a sinner and all that mere knowledge of the law does for you is to tempt you break God's rules in the first place. Not the law, itself, but the knowledge of it. God's rules and sinful man don't mix well. God's rules don't cause sin, God's rules don't tempt......but in our carnality, our flesh, we rebel against God's perfect laws and do sin. If there's a rule laid down by God.....we're gonna break it.

    Romans 7:15-20 - Our flesh cannot defeat sin. We know what the right thing to do is and yet we don't it. We know what evils to stay away from and yet we cling to them. On our own, we are pathetic. And since we can't handle sin in our flesh, then that proves that God's law is necessary.

    Romans 7:21-23 - Just when we decide that we are going to be "good" and obey God's law....BAM!!....sin is right there with us. We know that God is Holy and his laws are right, but just knowing it cannot fight sin. Sin causes a great war inside of us. The flesh and our own spirit battling it out.

    Romans 7:24-25 - Who can help us? Who can rescue us from our bodies of death......our will to sin? Only Jesus Christ and thank God Almighty for Him. Because no matter how hard in our minds we want to serve God and His holy laws, there is our pesky flesh who is governed by a law of sin.

    Romans 8:1-2 - THEREFORE......for those of us who are saved and in Christ Jesus, we walk with the Holy Spirit and we don't "follow" our flesh. There's a new law in our lives.....the law of the Holy Spirit of life. He frees us from the law of sin and death. He frees us from sin and death ruling over us.

    Romans 8:3-4 - The Old Testament law was "weak" in the sense that its mere presence always accompanied the presence of sin. God made a rule? Well, we in our sin are going to break it. The law could not save, only point to the need to be saved. But God sent His Holy Son to become sin for us and to overcome the sin of the flesh. He did this so that the purpose of the law could be fulfilled in those of us who have been saved.....that is, who follow after the Holy Spirit's leadership and not in the path of the flesh.

    Romans 8:5-8 - If you are going keep your mind on fleshly things, then that's what what you are going to follow.....and reap. But if you desire the things that the Holy Spirit can bring and teach, then you will follow the Spirit. Keeping your mind bent towards carnality is destructive - even deadly. That's because a carnal mind is the enemy of God. A carnal mind won't bend itself to the law, it fights it. Being in the "flesh" or carnally minded displeases God very much. Keeping yourself spiritually minded brings life and peace.

    Romans 8:9-11 - If you are following the Holy Spirit's comfort, conviction, calling, and lead, then He lives inside of you. This means that Jesus Christ lives in you, too. And if you have Christ living in you, then your fleshly body doesn't rule you anymore - think of it as dead (not, literally or we would be walking corpses). God lives in you, too. And if God could raise Jesus from the dead He can bring your dead flesh to life by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Romans 8:12-13 - THEREFORE.......we owe nothing to the "old man". We owe nothing to the flesh. That means we shouldn't even think about him (her). And we certainly shouldn't fall into the trap of letting sin ruin us by following it. If you are going to allow the flesh to govern you, then you are going to pay a great price for it. Carnality brings death.....destruction....a wasted life. But if you can submit to the leadership of the Holy Spirit and destroy the deeds of your carnal self, then this is the life intended for the Christian.
     
    #3 Scarlett O., Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  4. saturneptune

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    This is a question I have always wondered about, and commentaries seem to differ. Does the "walking in the flesh" in verse 4 mean a Christian walking in the flesh and verse 8 "in the flesh" mean an unsaved person, or do both mean an unsaved person? James 1 13-15 seems to say it is possible for a Christian to sin, and Romans 7 describes the struggle. Any thoughts? Thanks.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    I heard somebody say once that "walking in the flesh" means to be following the law and relying on the law instead of the finished work of Christ.
    Seemed to make sense, though.
     
  6. J. Jump

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    Saved individuals have a choice to make every moment and that is do we die to self or do we let self rule the moment. We can walk in the flesh or we can walk in the Spirit. There are consequences for both.

    There are really two major groups of thought on this subject and both are Scripturally incorrect. One group realizes that in order to have OSAS walking in the flesh as a lifestyle has to be an inpossibility, and so they would say that a saved individual will not walk in the flesh.

    Group 2 has been demonstrated by Zenas in that there are those that see this is a warning to saved individuals, but they errantly tie the consequences with eternal salvation and come up with conditional security, which is equally as incorrect as group one.

    The only harmonious way to view the warnings in Scripture is to understand they are indeed dealing with saved individuals and that it's not dealing with eternal salvation.

    It is dealing with salvation, but it's not eterna salvation, because Scripture clearly teaches that eternal savlation is not a life-long process, but a one-time event. And it is an event that never has to be repeated. It's one and done.

    When we compare Scripture with Scripture we see that the salvation of the soul is in fact a life-long process and this process can be thwarted by the individual. So the death that is being speaking of is explained in other areas of Scripture as the loss of the soul.

    Mr. Jim if you would like to study this matter out in more detail just send me a PM and I'll send you some resources to help.
     
  7. skypair

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    MrJim,

    I'm sorta "on board" with JJump. As the earlier verses say, our soul and spirit are saved eternally. What this verse is speaking of is our "temporal" salvation -- the part where we can either have an "abundant life" as Christ promised (John 10:10) or we can (other extreme) "sin unto [physical] death" which the Bible says don't even pray for -- they're gonna die anyway.

    There are a least 2 other places where I know this is referred to: 1) Rom 5:10 where is says we are saved eternally by His death and saved much more (temporally) by living His life. 2) Also, Heb 10:26-27 where it talks about "sinning willfully." The "fear of judgment and fiery indignation" is not of eternal judgment but of chastisement and death here on earth because we sin willfully. Give these "a read" and let me know if I can help.

    skypair
     
    #7 skypair, Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2007
  8. pinoybaptist

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    I want you to explain to me, please, why I am in full agreement with you on this point.

    It has always been my position that eternal salvation is not timely (temporal) salvation. The former is a one-time event with no input at all from man, the latter is a process, and is mostly the salvation Paul and others so often speak of, and so often misunderstood.
     
  9. Scarlett O.

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    Hmm....that's an interesting thought....I'm gonna chew on that a while. :laugh:
     
  10. J.D.

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    Concerning Romans 8, ask yourself these questions:

    "Walking after the Spirit", who does that describe? 1) Saved people 2) Lost people

    "Walking after the flesh", who does that describe? 1) Saved people 2) Lost people

    "Walking after the Spirit and not after the Flesh" is both a legal status and a descriptive of Christians.

    This does not mean that Christians do not sin. But they "can not do the things that they would" (Gal 5). It means that Christians can not be in a legal state of sin, nor in a state of continuous love for sin, nor in a state of continual practice of sin.

    To "mortify", that is, "render dead", the deeds of the flesh, you must have the Spirit, i.e., be born again. Those that are Christ's have mortified (crucified) the flesh with the affections and lusts (Gal 5).

    Romans 8 is mainly a display of the difference between the saved and the lost. The lost are condemned, and characteristically walk after the flesh. The saved are not condemned, and characteristically walk after the Spirit.
     
  11. webdog

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    This makes perfect sense, as walking in the flesh entails works...the things done in the flesh. These things never lead to salvation, but death. Even "good" works, as they are filthy rags to God. I'm with Scarlett, I'll have to join her for dinner (with my wife, of course ;)) to chew on this more. I'm also going to go back through to see how this phrase fits in context in where it is used elsewhere throughout the Bible.
     
  12. Scarlett O.

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    Let us know what you come up with. :wavey:



     
  13. saturneptune

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    Is there anything to the concept that v4 walking in the flesh is a Christian sinning and in v8 "in the flesh" is a lost person?
     
  14. MrJim

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    In that sense what would "mortifying the deeds of the flesh" mean-just to stop following the law?
     
  15. MrJim

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    I'm hearing this elsewhere-sin unto death.

    Not an aspect I'd considered...
     
  16. skypair

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    This is our nexis (sp?) --- we both see saved by His death and saved by His life, Rom 5:10. Regardless of how we come to Christ (you say no input by man; I say he MUST believe), we agree that JUSTIFICATION comes before SANCTIFICATION -- saved by His death before saved by His life.

    Another way to say it is BELIEF before REGENERATION. The OT saints, like us, were saved by belief BUT they could not be regenerated --- Christ had not yet lived so how could they be saved by His life??? How could the Spirit come and indwell and give believers the LIFE of Christ???? Jesus said, "Impossible! Unless I go, He cannot come!"

    You and I both believe, no doubt, that we are "Christ" living today before our generation. But that couldn't be were it not for the power of the indwelling Spirit. And this is what the OT saints will receive in "the regeneration" after the "resurrection of the just" post-trib into Messiah's MK.

    Another way to think of it is this ---- we are being sanctified right now as we live. Sanctification is preparation for glorification. You can't be glorified until God dwells in you. Through justification and sanctification, our souls and spirits are readied for our bodies to be glorified in the rapture. We have the righteousness of God in our soul -- the "mind of Christ" in our spirit. The only thing left is for God to change this mortal body to immortal/glory, 1Cor 15:50-51!!

    Salvation is a "process." Spiritual justification -- temporal sanctification -- heavenly glorification, preparation of the soul -- spirit -- body for eternity with God. This is the significance of the delineation of the soul, spirit, and body that PL and Calvinism denies.

    skypair
     
    #16 skypair, Jun 18, 2007
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  17. MrJim

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    1John5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    The way it's being explained all this "sin unto death" sounds like something between charismatic and Roman Catholic...I dunno...
     
    #17 MrJim, Jun 18, 2007
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  18. Scarlett O.

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    In that sense (the one we are considering), it would mean destroying the lifestyle of dependency on the flesh (or dependency on the law and works).

    It would not mean disobeying the law.
     
  19. skypair

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    That's good, MrJim! :thumbs:

    Because many believers do not know that they can "sin unto death" temporally. My favorite/worst example is smoking -- destroying the "temple" of God. My mom died of emphysema but there are SO many bad outcomes of smoking!! This is a "sin unto death" when one is in the final throes of destruction! Please, if you smoke --- QUIT!! Your Christian friends, though they pray with all their might, have no power over your situation! And that is God's word, not ours!

    I have no doubt of my mother's salvation. I believe that we often come to Christ in situations that we may never have enough faith to overcome. I, fortunately, overcame the same habit, perhaps on account of my youth, my maleness + God, for sure! But "willful" sin -- be sure you will be expecting "judgment and fiery indignation" in this life!

    And that is the point of "saved by the life of Christ," Jim. God can only sanctify you IAW your obedience. God gives us a really good pattern for repentance/quitting the flesh in 2Cor 7:9-11. He gives the power of the Spirit (and, in my mom's case, of "chemicals" -- I paid for her to get injections to try to disable her addiction BEFORE it was too late). I am very emotional about this but also "wise" in the ways of God and Satan, too. You need to be committed to this concept of "saved by His life" if you are to understand the "abundant life!"

    skypair
     
    #19 skypair, Jun 18, 2007
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  20. Scarlett O.

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    I'm still pondering on all of this....:laugh:

    • Verse 4 is definitely about the Christian. "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not of the flesh, but of the Spirit."
    • And if we mean "walking in the flesh" to be synonymous with "trying to live up to the law and not being dependent on Jesus", then it's possible that verse 8 is also about the Christian. Christians do get hung up in legalism from time to time. All of us do.
    Back up to verse 7. Paul says that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God nor can it be subject to the law of God. In other words, we just don't have it in us to surrender on our own power to God's law.

    Verse 8. So if you are in the flesh (trying in vain to live up to the law and being dependent on it) then that is not pleasing to God because of what verse 7 says. We can try as we might all day long to live in obedience to God all by our own strength (the flesh, or dependency on the law), but chapter 7 of Romans says that we cannot do it.
     

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