Romans 9:17-24

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Bartholomew, Oct 11, 2003.

  1. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
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    Hello everyone,

    I hardly ever post in this forum, but I often read the posts of others, because I think this is a really interesting subject. However, I haven't seen a discussion on this passage, and wondered what you all thought it meant, please? I personally think it does more for the Calvinism argument than any other passage (I'm not saying I believe Calvinism), so would be particularly interested to hear non-Calvinist's opinions on it.

    17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


    In particular,

    1. What is meant by "hardening" hearts? Is only Pharoh in view here or others? If others, who are they?

    2. Does God try to impose his will on everyone? WHO has resisted God's will?

    3. Who are the "vessels" pictures of - all mankind, or some smaller group (e.g. Jews)?

    4. What does it mean to make some vessels to "honour" - is this salvation, or something else?

    5. What about "dishonour"?

    6. What is the "same lump" - Adam and Eve, Abraham, or someone else?

    7. Are the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" the SAME vessels as the vessels made "unto dishonour"? Why/why not?

    8. WHY does God need to endure "with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" in order to make known the riches of his glory on the "vessels of mercy"?

    9. Are the "vessels of mercy" all those who are told the gospel, or just those who believe it, or some other group? (verse 24)

    10. Were the "vessels of mercy" prepared unto glory as individuals, or as a group (i.e. those who are not yet part of the group are not yet prepared unto glory)?

    11. WHEN were they prepared unto glory?

    Thanks for your help,

    Bartholomew [​IMG]
     
  2. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Pharoah is the example. Others are quite possibly hardened by God as well. I cannot give you a theological definition of this, and probably not a dictionary definition. But I can say that scripture evidently shows that Pharoah hardened his heart on occassion and God hardened his heart on occassion. This is the difficulty I have here and where I have need of further study.

    Sorry. I will get back to ya on this and on the other questions you have posted. Just thought I would add some of my thoughts here so this didn't get bumped off the page.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. Frogman

    Frogman
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    This thought just came to me. I believe in Paul says that when the Gentiles obey the Law, they are obeying the law unto themselves. I will search for this and post it because it seems as if I have done damage to it here as I have tried to post it.

    Later.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
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    Thanks Bro. Dallas,

    I know I asked a lot of questions, but to be honest, I'd rather just have people's simple thoughts as to what the answers are, rather than explanations of why you think that (though of course they'd be nice, too!) Sometimes, I find I understand a passage wrong because I never thought it COULD mean what it does!

    Thanks again,

    Bartholomew [​IMG]
     
  5. Frogman

    Frogman
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    I wouldn't explain it as God 'try'(s) to impose his will.

    Note what Christ spoke to Pilot in John

    In an adult Bible class I was in a few years ago there was there one teaching who was making an attempt to teach that it was not God's will that Christ die. He founded this teaching upon the words spoken to the disciples of Christ [I think in Matt. 24 reading something to the effect: The days come when they shall kill you thinking they do a service to God]. He related this to the reason for the crucifiction of Christ. This is far from Biblical truth. It is certain that we cannot always agree one with another, but we ought to not let our thoughts be imposed upon scripture. That which is foreordained by God will come to pass in time. As we see in time we witness only a portion of that and in some cases this has the appearance that God would impose his will upon man. In truth it is the Spirit of God that witholds consider Ps. 76 with Acts 4:

    Ps. 76.10  Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

    Acts 4.24  And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
    25  Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
    26  The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
    27  For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
    28  For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
     

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