Romans 9

The potter does not create clay, he takes preexistent clay and forms it into a vessel. The clay God takes and forms into vessels is the fallen lump of humanity in Adam. Election is God's purpose before the clay was created and election anticipates the fall because we are chosen "to" salvation. Unfallen man does not need to be chosen "to" salvation as there is nothing lost as it is unfallen.

Try using what is between your ears for a change and you might understand what you read.

 

I have never dealt with such gross ignorance in all my born days. This is an analogy to prove a point. It is not an analogy to teach about God as CREATOR but about God's purpose in having mercy on some and hardening others - Look at the statement and objection that introduces this analogy:

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Paul did not speak about the CREATION of man but the USE of fallen man like PHAROAH to accomplish His purposes. If he wanted to speak about the CREATION of man he would have used Adam instead of Pharoah!!!

The fact that verse 20 declares God has the right to vent his WRATH upon those he hardens demonstrates they are being considered just like Pharoah - FALLEN humanity already predisposed to sin and therefore JUST objects of God's wrath:

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Are you so ignorant that you will argue that UNFALLEN mankind are just objects of God's wrath and destruction??????

That is exactly the position you are FORCED to take if you apply this to UNFALLEN mankind.

 

Unconditional election has NOTHING to do with creation, with the fall of man or with God as the CREATOR of clay. Jeremiah went to a potters shop and watched the potter fashion clay into vessels. He did not watch the potter CREATE clay.

You purposely avoided the contextual evidence I placed before you? You purposely avoided the challenge I made to you. You are not interested in truth but in arguing just to argue and that is why you don't care what a person really believes or what a Biblical text really teaches but only in what you want to believe and want others to think.

Again, the immediate context as well as verse 22 proves this clay is FALLEN MANKIND. Verse 22 answers the objector to Paul's statement in verse 18 that whom God wills to harden he hardeneth. Is there a just basis for God to harden UNFALLEN mankind? Is there a just basis for God to shew his wrath upon UNFALLEN mankind?

This is your dilemma as long as you contend that the clay represents UNFALLEN mankind.

Come on and man up and deal with this issue or stop asserting that the clay represents UNFALLEN mankind.

 

Let's start at square one.

1. Election is taught in the Scripture.

2. The term is used in regard to person individual salvation (Eph. 1:4-14; 2 Thes. 2:13-14; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; Rom. 8:32).

Now, there are only two possible options:

1. Election is conditional
2. Election is unconditional

If you take the position that election is conditional, then you are saying that before the world began God chose a people "in him" (Eph. 1:4) based on something foreseen in them that he did not see in others - actions, willingness, etc.

If you take the position that election is unconditional, then you are saying that before the world began God chose a people without any basis in them, foreseen or otherwise, but according to His own good pleasure.

Which is it?

Obviously, you will most likely take the conditional election view. However, to do so, you must prove that election was based upon the foreseen actions of those whom God elected. In other words, before the world began, He foresaw something in some that he didn't in others (e.g. their choice of him, their good works, etc.) that was the basis for choosing them over others.

 

In Romans 9 Paul teaches that four primary characteristics are true of all the promised seed or those called "the children of God." Indeed, these same four primary characteristics are inferred in the very descriptions of "promised seed" and "children of God."

1. They are supernaturally born as was Isaac rather than mere natural birth as were the other seven sons of Abraham. In Galatians within the context of the birth of Isaac Paul says the following in regard to every true child of God:

Rom. 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Gal. 4:18 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Ga. 5:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


2. Like Jacob, they are chosen objects of redemptive love before the world began. Paul tells the Thessalonicans:

Rom. 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


2 Thes. 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth


3. They are objects of God's Sovereign mercy:

Rom. 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy....18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


4. They are prepared in advance for glory:

Rom. 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2 Thes. 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

You are fighting a High Calivinist, I am not a High Calvinist or even a Calvinist.

Double predestination is the doctrine of a supralapsarian not a sublapsarian and I am a sublapsarian.

I do not believe that God elects people to hell. I do not believe that God is the author of sin in the sense of God being responsible for the choice or action of Satan or Adam to sin.

I have defended my position with SCRIPTURES ONLY. You are building a straw man and burning it. You have misrepresented my position over and over again. You think you have the right to tell me what I believe when I do not belive what you attribute to me.

Your problem is that you are fighting classic high Calvinism and what you say is true of claiss high Calvinism BUT I do not hold to that system of logic simply because the scriptures in my opinion do not support it.

I will present the problem to you again.

God knew in advance to creating either Satan or Adam that they would sin and yet he intentionally created them knowing full well that their sin would bring complete havoc to His creation. However, He intentionally proceeded to creat Lucifer and Adam. Hence, how can you deny God purposely permitted sin to occur?

I don't think you can believe God was caught by surpise by sin or did not know sin would occur if He created Lucifer and Adam. Therefore, I don't think you can honestly deny God purposely created Lucifer and Adam with full knowledge that in doing so He was giving permission for the existence of and the consequences of sin in His creation.

If a good God knowingly and thus purposely permitted sin to occur with all of its consequences, it can only be in keeping with His eternal purpose to ultimately restrain and overule sin for the ultimate good of His people and for his glory.

 

• 
  
  This is a trick question. Your questions are equal to "have you stopped beating your wife" as any yes or no answer incriminates you.
  If you would have asked "Can any be saved that God foreknows ARE lost" that would be in keeping with reality as that would permit at least salvation of some of the lost. Your second question is also a trick question. If you would have asked "Can any of the lost be saved that God foreknows WILL BE saved" that would be in keeping with reality.
  
  However, your questions deny your own position. Do you believe any can be saved that God foreknows are to be lost? If God foreknows they "are to be" lost then the only way they can be saved is if God's foreknowlege is wrong.
  
  Do you believe can any be lost that God foreknows are to be saved? If God foreknows they are to be saved and then the only way they "are to be lost" is if God's foreknowledge is in error.
  
  Your questions are irrational as you cannot answer them without contradicting both God and your own position.
  
  
  
  No, this is not true. Election is based soley upon the good pleasure of His will in regard to those who deserve nothing but His wrath. It is true that for all God elected He also elected the means to accomplish their SALVATION (2 Thes. 2:13) not their "election" as there is no means for election except the soverign good pleasure of God.
  
  
  No, this is not true either as their damnation is accomplished already by their own union in Adam and in addition by their own choices and actions. God merely leaves them to their own choices while presenting them with their responsibility to repent and believe the gospel. Their inability is of their own making and their damnation is of their own doing.
  
  
  
  Election is "to" salvation "through" elected salvation means (2 Thes. 2:13). Damnation is merely allowing the free agency of man the freedom to continue in their rejection of God. Nothing prevents the salvation of any sinner but their own free choice to resist and reject the goodness of God presented in creation, in providence, in conscience and in the preaching of His word and nothing obtains the salvation of the elect but God's free grace bestowed upon them due only to the good pleasure of God's will without any regard to what they deserve by their actions.
  
  

The fallen condition of man was not determined by their own personal actions after birth. Hence, neither damnation or election was determined by such personal post-birth actions. The fall of man was accomplised by their representative union in THE ACT of ONE MAN (Rom. 5:12, 17-19) and their post-birth actions simply manifested their fallen condition rather than produced it.

So, the answer is no! Nothing is witheld from the non-elect because election to salvation was never intended or designed for the non-elect. The non-elect receive EVERYTHING THEY DESERVE - JUSTICE. The non-elect are simply left to their own free will to do as they please and ONLY AS THEY PLEASE (Jn. 3:19-20).

 

HP you don't even understand the nature of your own question. I have repeatedly said that foreknowledge if considered as simply advanced knowledge of future events has no causal effect upon that event - it does not necessitate that event to be so - it merely reveals it to be so.

However, you are asking me if God's foreknowlege of a future event can be wrong? If I say yes, then I am denying the accuracy of God's foreknowlege of a future event. Thus calling God a liar. If I say no, then I am denying any foreknown lost person can be saved thus denying the scriptures as foreknown lost people can be and are being saved.

If we define "foreknowledge" as simply prescience or God's omnicience of future events, then of course some of whom God forknew would be lost can be saved.

However, if we define "foreknowlege" as revelation of God's prior eternal purpose then we are talking about what God predetermines to come to pass. Election according to this definition of forknowledge is God's predetermined purpose to save some of Adam's fallen race (the elect) while purposely leaving the rest to their own free choice.

Election according to God's foreknowledge in the sense of revelation based upon God's eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28-29) does not elect any human being to sin as election is strictly a postive action by God in the choice of some "to" salvation not to sin or damnation.


Sin is not authored by God but allowed by God and the non-elect are simply allowed by God not only to sin as the elect also were allowed to sin but they are in addition allowed to freely continue in sin by God's predestinated purpose for them.

Agreed! God does not need to elect man to sin as that is their own free choice. God does not need to predestinate sinners to reject and resist God and the gospel as God has predestinated their complete freedom to do so in keeping with their own nature and choice.

Only your last statement is true "provided the means to accomplish His election" as no such means is provided because He election is a Sovereign act of God based upon His own good pleasure. However, the Scripture clearly states that the elect are those whom God has chosen "to" salvation "through" elected SALVATION means:

2 Thes. 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Agreed! No one goes to hell for Adam's sin! However, all mankind are MADE SINNERS by one man's act - Adam' sin (Rom. 5:12,17-19)! Hence, they are born with a sinful nature, condemned to death by "one man's act of disobedience" and when they come to personal individual choice and choose sin they will go to hell if they do not repent and believe the gospel.

They are born sinners and condemned to death because they sinned "in Adam" when Adam sinned. The whole human nature was "in Adam" when Adam sinned, the whole human race acted in Adam and the proof is that infants suffer the consequence of sin (death) EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE NOT INDIVIDUALLY and SEPARATELY WILLFULLY SINNED. Infants die because all men die due to sinning in Adam. Physcial death proves all sinned in Adam because ALL DIE physically.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:....15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

Well, at least you see there are only two possible choices as there is no middle ground between conditional and unconditional.

I respect your right to choose the position you think best suits what you believe the Bible teaches.

I humbly disagree with your choice as I believe it does not harmonize with explicit teachings of the scripture in regard to election but promotes pride rather than humility (1 Cor. 1:26-31).