Romans 9

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Robert Snow, Nov 19, 2011.

  1. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow
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    In Romans 9 is Paul talking about individuals or nations?

    I've been studying through Romans and find myself in chapter 9. I believe this is basically talking about God choosing one nation (Jacob) over another (Esau).

    What do you think?
     
  2. convicted1

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    When I read Romans 9, immediately, this verse jumped out at me:

    Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.


    Now, if you read closely, you can see that Jacob was a "type" of the soul, whereas Esau, a "type" of the flesh. The elder(flesh) shall serve the younger(soul). God first makes the flesh, and then imparts the soul. So, the flesh is the "elder", and the soul the "younger". When we are saved, our soul, through the working of the Sprit, brings our flesh under subjection-a former of servitude, if you will.

    Basically it boils down to this. God chose to save the soul only when He saves. The flesh gets saved/changed when it comes forth from the ground upon Christ's return to gather His children and take them home.
     
  3. Rippon

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    It's about personal salvation of individuals. And the imaginary objector voices the same attitudes as many non-Cals/Arminians.
     
  4. Robert Snow

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    If you read the Peoples New Testament Commentary you will see that everybody doesn't agree with you.

    BTW, is it possible for you to make a comment without the attitude?
     
  5. Rippon

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    You make me laugh so hard Robert. Of course I know that many do not agree with me. That is a given. Most may not agree with me.

    The attitude I mentioned was in reference to non-Cals/Arminians who actually voice the views of the objector that Paul deals with. They follow the objector to a T while trying to escape the Calvinistic/Pauline conclusions that are so embedded in that wonderful chapter.
     
  6. psalms109:31

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    Election

    How can you not love the elected line that brings life to the world, your only begotten Son and hate a line that will bring death and no life to the world.

    I see it is the Joy of God looking forward that which will come through the line of Jacob or in Romans looking back at the line that you used to bring your only begotten Son.

    Acts 10:
    34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

    39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
     
    #6 psalms109:31, Nov 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2011
  7. convicted1

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    That okay Brother Robert. Those of us who don't ascribe to Total Domination, forget about Sovereignity of God, when we stand before Him, and He tells us that He never wanted us to begin with. All those times He drew us, it was a joke, and that He was teasing us, knowing that He was never going to save us, regardless. :rolleyes:
     
  8. zrs6v4

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    I believe it is about individuals who make up a body of people whether it be the elect of God in the New Covenant or the elect of the Old. The point shows God's works continued in the new in election. So my simple answer is if God elects nations or people groups he must also elect the people individually to get that group. At any rate Romans 9 individualizes the elective process to individuals.
     
  9. convicted1

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    As others have posted in other threads, election, in no way, guarantees salvation. Grace is what saves, and election is but one part of it. The Jews as a whole, were God's chosen(elect) people. But, you can see where God destroyed some due to their rebellion/unbelief. Same with us Gentiles. God chose us corporately, but only those who choose to believe, will be saved.
     
  10. 12strings

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    So you are saying ROm. 9 is simply Paul using and OT example as a sort of allegory to show us that our sinful flesh will no longer rule our saved soul?
    I think that's what romans 6 is about, but I don't see it here in ch. 9.
     
  11. convicted1

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    What I am saying is that when our flesh rises up, our soul, through the working of the Spirit, is brought under subjection. The soul is what keeps our flesh from becoming too puffed up, IOW.
     
  12. 12strings

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    This was definitly true in the OT that there were those in the elect nation that were not truly Abraham's children (see rom. 9:8).

    However, Jeremiah predicts a New Covenant in which this will no longer be the case:
    Jer. 31:31 o“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make pa new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when qI took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, rthough I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 sFor this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: sI will put my law within them, and I will write it ton their hearts. uAnd I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ vfor they shall all know me, wfrom the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For xI will forgive their iniquity, and yI will remember their sin no more.”

    In the New Covenant, the Elect are ALL (All means all, right?) those that know God and have their sins forgiven. Rom. 1:8 "Who can bring any charge against God's elect?" It does not say "who can bring any charge against THOSE OF GOD'S ELECT WHO ARE TRULY SAVED." It assumes that the Elect are those that are God's children.


    One more Question:
    If you believe God chose us corporately, what exactly does that mean?

    1. He chose Israel corporately in the OT, but now has chose EVERYONE corporately. That hardly seems to warrant God using choosing and election language at all.

    2.Would you say this means that now in the New Covenant, all are chosen, but only a few will choose God...but in the Old Covenant, only Israel was chosen, along with a few select foreigners, but the rest were passed over for that time, without the light that would lead them to know God?
     
  13. 12strings

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    Also, Just curious...

    Can any of the historians here tell us WHEN the corporate election view was first articulated?
     
  14. Ruiz

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    The question is normally asked, "Is this corporate or individual?" Some insist this must be corporate only. I insist it is both. There are individual and corporate elements here. You cannot, for instance, have a corporate unless there is the individual (Jacob and Esau is the prime example).

    Those who wish for only a corporate rendering miss the obvious, that the Bible uses the individual to demonstrate the corporate.
     
  15. psalms109:31

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    Romans 2
    God’s Righteous Judgment
    1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

    5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

    God choose and elected messenger through out time and even loved the line that will bring His Son. They murder His messenger and killed His Son.

    Luke 11 47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

    52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

    1 Thessalonians 2:
    13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

    I have no problem with the choosing of the line that would bring His Son, the choosing of the prophet who told of Jesus. The chosen messengers that bring the message like Paul and many before him and after him. I will not deny one scripture.

    To those who are being saved through the messengers of old and new that hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed He shows no favoritism. Those who believe in His Son will be saved.

    Romans 10:
    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Isaiah 52:7]

    There is no one who seeks God so God had to choose messengers to seek them.
     
    #15 psalms109:31, Nov 19, 2011
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  16. Robert Snow

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    This is the introduction to chapter 9 from the Peoples New Testament Commentary.
     
  17. Romans7man

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    My question is, what's up with the alphabet?
     
  18. JesusFan

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    Think Apostle paul starts here to develope his teaching that "not all of isreal is really isreal", in the sense that they were always people under OC who were under a physical realtionship with God, under covenat of the land/Law etc , while was a smaller remnat under grace, who had circumcised hearts, others had just that of circumcised flesh...

    same way now, faithful remnant of jews within national isreal those whom hearts God spiritually circumcised and granted new herats, due to His elective work of grace on their behalf!
     
  19. freeatlast

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    It is speaking about man's free will and God's election.
     
  20. convicted1

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    Nevertheless, they were His chosen(elect) people. Some rebelled/did not believe, and He gave them the axe because of it. So, even a majority of the OT elect were either axed, or cut off due to their failing to believe.

    Correct. God, because of the Jews incessant unbelieving, chose to save the Gentiles, and cut the Jews out, and brought them/us in. This is what I meant by corporate election. He turned to the Gentiles when He turned away from the Jews.


    The elect are the children of God, correct. But the way we arrive at this conclusion is from differing perspectives, I guess.



    Hey, I thought you were only asking one more question?? :laugh:


    Jesus Himself made this statement; "For many are called, but few chosen". What does that mean? The call went to many who will not be saved. Why? Because they willfully, and knowingly rejected Him.
     

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