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Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by chandler, Mar 21, 2005.
How do Arminians deal with Romans Chapter 9 which puts God's sovereignty so plainly?
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The truth of Romans 9
You'll get a real good idea there.
May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
They can't Chandler.
It's a heart issue. The ironic thing is, the answer to their heart issue is in Romans 9.
They want to clay to be able to form itself. But Paul begs to differ.
You say that rc, because you think of God as being a respector of man, always tending to only those he elects for salvation.
God outranks us all and therefore needs pay respect to any man! But alas, Calvinists cannot see that!
Do you know what respector of persons means Wes?
Arminianism is nothing BUT that ! The respecting means CONDITIONS ... like rich, poor, smart, dumb, has "chosen" , hasn't "chosen" ...
God choses not on who man is, but on GOD's sovereignty... I know this is hard for you to understand since your whole theology rests on man centeredness but this is what respector means...
I see why your response, in my haste today, I left out a word. My second sentence in my last post should read: "God outranks us all and therefore needs pay NO respect to any man! But alas, Calvinists cannot see that!"
Yes I know full what "respecting means", just the simple fact that God outranks man shows who should respect whom. Really quite simple ain't it?
I see no problem with the Arminian position with Romans chapter 9. But I am well aware of the Calvinistic twisting of the plain meaning of the texts here, to try to show something that it simply does not!
The main difference between Arminianism and Calvinism, is that the former upholds the Sovereignty of God AS WELL AS the responsibility
of man; whereas the latter stresses so much the Sovereignty of God, that they make man into nothing more than machines, who simply carry out the bidding of God, even to the point of the actual sins that they comit!
Calvinists completely misunderstand the example of
Jacob and Easu, where they suppose that God's preference in salvation is meant. If they would but open their eyes, they will see that it does say: "that the purpose of God, according to election might stand, not of works but of Him Who calls: it was said to her, THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER" verses 11-12
Where in here does it even hint at God choosing Jacob over Esau for the purpose of Salvation? "SERVICE" is the issue at hand, and God's Sovereignty in choosing Easu to serve Jacob is cearly at main issue here!
Neither is there any problem with God hardening Whom He will, and to have mercy on whom He will. This is perfectly in accordance with Scripture, where Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, please
read this carefully:
"and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, IN ORDER THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. And for this reason, God will send them strong delusion, in order that they should believe the lie, in order that they may be condemned WHO REFUSED TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH, BUT HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS"
It is because man will NOT ACCEPT God's Truth in the Gospel of Jesus, that He will "send them a strong delusion (harden their hearts) in order that they may believe their lies"
Note also in Romans 9, that "God endureth with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared (by themselves by their rejection of God, - so in the Greek in the middle voice) for destruction" (verse 23)
What do you guys make of chapter 11:32?
"For God has committed them all to disobedience, in order that He might have mercy on all"
Are you saying that the "all" here refers only to the "elect"? If os, then it makes no sense at all. For, why should God comit the elect to disobedience? But, if it refers to the whole human race, then, and then alone it makes perfect sense. It does not say that God "will" have mercy on all, but that He "might", that is, if they believe!
You see, the understanding of Calivinsm for election, the atonement, etc, does more damage to the plain teachings of the Word of God, as it teaches things that are not found in Scripture!
that the purpose of God, according to election might stand.
The issue at hand in the text has NOTHING to do with "service". Read the context! The purpose of God according to election is the issue... for crying out loud, And Paul is going out of His way to make that point. He's even disregarding "faith" also ... notice he says
"Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because OF HIS CALL-
Notice he didn't say not because of works but because of FAITH? ... It's because without the call, there would be no faith (no man seeks after God, no not one)! That call is according to God's GRACE Eph 1.7 and it is elective ROMANS 9!
That call was for the Apostles. Paul in verses 3-12 is speaking about the Apostles! Too bad you cannot see it! He includes the Ephesians in verses 13 and 14.
Romans 9:11 does not support "general election", it quotes one specific example of God making a choice.
Cite for us another example of God doing such! If there are no other examples of God doing such, you need to rethink "general election".
Can you cite even one such documented incident from modern history? If not, then you have a lot to prove.
Quoting Old testament historical events, is fine, but you must make the connection into modern times, where God continues to do that which you cite, and I dare say you cannot!
I had an arminian Bible Doctrines teacher in college. He made Romans 9 do so many eisegetical jumping jacks my head was spinning. It baffles me how some people twist scripture to say what they want it to say.
It seems you have become a master at it too!
Pro 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
Then stop doing it!
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Knock it off whetstone, you are out of your league!
Jam 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
That is what I've done whetstone
"Romans 9:11 does not support "general election", it quotes one specific example of God making a choice. "
Romans supports specific election... and the Bible supports the Law of exegetical constancy Wes. The whole point of chpt 9 is God's sovereignty to choose. And on Eph 1... quit embarrassing yourself. You might want to start a cult but you won't find any followers here. Learn from YOUR teachers and stop being so prideful.
Don't you think you ought to prove that ordained has been traslated the same way for thousands of years.
I'm going to hold you accountable