Romans Chapter Eleven

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by R. J., Dec 22, 2006.

  1. R. J.

    R. J.
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    Romans Chapter Eleven

    In Romans Chapter Nine, we learned that, in the Church age, only a small remnant of Jews will be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

    In Romans Chapter Ten, we learned that, in the Church age, the vast majority of Jews are clinging to their own self-righteousness and are rejecting the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ.

    Romans Chapter Eleven deals with the FUTURE of Israel. It deals with the restoration of Israel to their place as God's people. It deals with the ultimate salvation of all living Jews at the end of Daniel's 70th week.

    Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Verse 1 is a reference to NATIONAL Israel. Notice also that Paul calls himself "an Israelite". In Galatians 2:15, Paul called himself a Jew. This should put to rest the false teaching that only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin are Jews.

    In verse 2, note that "Elias" is the New Testament form of "Elijah". Note also that this is the only place in the scriptures where intercession is made AGAINST Israel.

    Verse 3 is a quote of Elijah's prayer in 1 Kings 19:14. Elijah thought that he was the only prophet of God left. Since Elijah has already been told that Obadiah had saved 100 prophets from Jezebel, perhaps Elijah was having a bit of a "pity party" for himself.

    In verse 4, the Lord informs Elijah that there are 7000 men that He has reserved to Himself. Notice that these men were reserved because they had not "bowed the knee to the image of Baal". This election was based, IN TIME, on the works of those men.

    An election is placed in "this present time" in verse 5. The "Even so . . ." in this verse connects it to verse 4 and tells us that, just as God selected 7000 men because they would not bow to Baal, in the Church age God will choose a remnant of Jews based on the fact that they receive Christ by grace through faith.

    Now pay close attention to verse 6 as it is loaded with information. Verse 6 states that if the election of verse 5 is by GRACE (which it is) then it cannot be by works, LIKE IT WAS IN Verse 4.

    PROPHETICALLY, these verses point to the salvation of the Jews in the great tribulation. Elijah shows up in Revelation 11 and the Jews are required to bow down to an image of the Antichrist or they will die (Revelation 13:14-15).

    At that time, it will take MORE that receiving Christ to save a person. The Body of Christ has been completed and has been raptured to Heaven. The Holy Spirit is no longer INDWELLING believers as He was in the Church age. There are TWO bodies of believers on earth:
    1. a Gentile body (Revelation 7:9 and 7:14)
    2. a Jewish body (Revelation 7:4-8)
    In that day, a person is saved by trusting in Christ AND keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). Worshipping the Antichrist and his image is an automatic ticket to Hell (Revelation 14:9-11).

    Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    Let's determine what the nation of Israel was seeking. Looking back at Romans 10:1-3, we can see that Israel was seeking God's righteousness but was ignorant of it. They had a "zeal of God, but not according to knowledge".

    "The election" DID find righteousness BECAUSE they received Jesus Christ and God, the Father, imputed the righteousness of His Son to them (Romans 3:22).

    Verse 8 is a quote from the following verse:

    Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

    Notice the definition of their "eyes". It is the prophets and rulers. Following Jesus Christ and the apostles, Israel will have no prophets until Revelation 7 and 11 in the great tribulation.

    In addition, Isaiah 29:11 states that Israel's "vision of all" is like the "words of a book that is sealed".

    So, Israel, as a nation, can not HEAR the truth from their leaders and they can not SEE the truth in the Scriptures. For example, to this very day, Jewish Rabbis teach that the "righteous servant" of Isaiah 53:11 was the Jews suffering for the Gentiles.

    Verses 9-10 are quotes from Psalm 69:22-23 where David takes up a prayer for vengeance based upon the rejection of Christ. That "which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap".

    The "fall" in verse 11 is TEMPORARY until "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". Its purpose is to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

    Finally, in verse 12, the fall of Israel benefits not only the believing Gentiles but also the world. These blessings will ultimately bring Israel even greater blessings.


    --- Continued on next post ---
     
  2. R. J.

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    Romans Chapter Eleven (Continued)

    Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

    Paul begins this passage by stating that he is THE apostle of the Gentiles. Here are the verses that speak of Paul being called by the Lord Jesus to the Gentiles:

    Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

    Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

    Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

    Late in his ministry, Paul speaks of additional offices as shown in these verses:

    1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

    2 Timothy 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

    Paul contrasts the ministry to which the Lord Jesus Christ called him to Christ's earthly ministry in this verse:

    Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

    It appears that Paul might be bragging a bit with his phrase "I magnify mine office." However, verse 14 gives the reason for this statement. He is trying to provoke the Jews to jealousy that he "might save some of them".

    Verse 15 speaks of the restoration of Israel which literally takes place in Ezekiel 37. The existence of Israel as a nation today is nothing short of miraculous. It is the BEGINNING of the restoration to ALL of the Old Testament promises given to Israel.

    At the second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ, Israel will be made fully alive in a way she has never been throughout her history (Romans 11:26; Acts 2:17-21, 3:19-21; Ezekiel 36:24-28, 37:11-14).




    --- Continued on next post ---
     
  3. R. J.

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    Romans Chapter Eleven (Continued)

    Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

    The CONTEXT of these verses is extremely significant for one's understanding of the passage. Let's digress for a moment and speak of one's assurance of salvation. We know that upon belief we are SEALED unto redemption by the Holy Spirit. We can NOT lose our salvation. We might lose heavenly rewards, but NOT our salvation.

    Now, glance down to verse 21 and note the "inference" to lost salvation. This verse is NOT speaking of an INDIVIDUAL member of the body of Christ. It is speaking of GENTILES as a GROUP.

    The CONTEXT of this passage, then, is the chances which God gave to both the Jews and Gentiles as GROUPS OF PEOPLE to hear the word of God and be saved. Look back at verses 11, 12 and 13 where Paul mentions GENTILES four times. Since Christians are neither Jew nor Gentile, Paul must be speaking to unsaved Roman Gentiles and not to the Roman Christians.

    So, the Lord is using the analogy of the olive tree to illustrate His dealings with Israel as a GROUP and the Gentiles as another GROUP. Now, let's look at the specific verses of this passage.

    Although the olive tree is not introduced until verse 17, verse 16 alludes to this tree having a root and branches that are holy. In verse 17 we see both Israel and Gentiles partaking of the holy root and the fatness of the olive tree. What the natural olive tree represents, then, is the NATION of Israel (Numbers 23:9).

    Note carefully here that the "Olive Tree" in this passage is NOT the Church (i.e. the body of Christ).

    Next, let's examine what happens to the olive tree. In verse 20, we see that God broke off some of the branches. These were the Jews that rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Saviour.

    The Lord then grafted limbs from a "wild olive tree" into the natural olive tree. The "wild olive tree" is the GENTILES. Verse 20 again explains how Gentiles are grafted in to the olive tree by FAITH in Jesus Christ.

    Back in verse 18, Paul warns the Gentiles not to boast against the branches that were broken off in verses 19 and 20.

    Now, SPIRITUALLY speaking, Gentiles who become Christians are carried by the Jew. The Lord Jesus stated this emphatically in John 4:22 when He said that "salvation is of the Jews". The apostles and Jesus, Himself, were all Jewish.

    The theme of the Holy Scriptures is a King and His kingdom. That kingdom has a SPIRITUAL side (i.e. the Kingdom of God) and a literal, visible, physical side (i.e. the Kingdom of Heaven).

    In verse 20, Paul warned the Gentiles to not be "highminded, but fear". Then, in verse 21 we see that if God broke off the natural branches, He can also break off the wild branches and take away opportunities for GENTILES to be saved. This is substantiated in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 where we see the "falling away" from sound doctrine within the Church. When the apostasy within the Church has reached its peak, God will once again turn His attention to Israel.

    Let's take a moment and look ahead to the "great tribulation" when many of the GENTILE branches are broken off and the Jewish branches are grafted back in to the olive tree.

    Notice again in verse 22, that the salvation of Gentiles as a GROUP comes back into focus. God's goodness to the Gentiles is conditioned upon their CONTINUING in His goodness. Otherwise, the Gentiles as a GROUP will also be broken off the olive tree.

    --- Continued on next post ---
     
  4. R. J.

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    Romans Chapter Eleven (Continued)

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


    This passage is a problem for the following theologies:
    1. Covenant
    2. Replacement
    3. Progressive Dispensational (i.e. Covenant in the making)
    Verse 25 makes it clear that anyone who thinks that God is all through with Israel, they are ignorant and conceited.
    Here are some facts concerning this passage:
    1. The nation of Israel is spiritually blind IN PART. There is a "remnant according to the election of grace" that have and will receive Christ as their Saviour.
    2. The "fulness of the Gentiles" will occur at the gathering of the body of Christ (i.e. the rapture). AFTER that event, Jews and Gentiles will be saved separately.
    3. At the second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Jews who have survived the "great tribulation" will see the glorified body of their Messiah and accept Him as their Saviour.
    4. Almighty God will establish His new covenant with the NATION of Israel exactly as described in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated in Hebrews 8:8-12).
    This passage is connected to two significant bible doctrines:
    1. The Restoration of Israel
    2. The Premillennial return of the Lord Jesus Christ
    Some of the Old Testament passages that are connected with these doctrines are:
    1. Isaiah 2, 11
    2. Ezekiel 36, 40-48
    3. Zephaniah 3
    4. Micah 7
    5. Zechariah 12-14
    This passage and the Old Testament passages just listed refute both Amillennialism and Post-millennialism. Christ returns to His people, Israel (Matthew 24) and reigns 1,000 years (Revelation 20). Anyone who doesn't believe those things is ignorant and conceited. Here are a few that are in this category:
    1. John Calvin
    2. The Lockman Foundation
    3. The Puritans
    4. Charles Spurgeon
    5. Benjamin Warfield
    6. A. T. Robertson
    They were ALL Amillennialists or Post-millennialists.
    In conclusion concerning this passage, God has kept for Himself a "remnant according to the election of grace". That is INDIVIDUAL Jews that have or will accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour. At the second advent, Christ will deal with those Jews that have survived the "great tribulation" as a NATION. In the Millennium, the Lord will again deal with INDIVIDUAL Jews concerning how they keep the law written in their hearts (Matthew 5-7) as well as Israel corporately in the sacrifices made at the temple (Ezekiel 40-48).

    Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    At this point in Romans 11, Paul once more turns to discussing God's dealings with Israel in the Church age. At this time, unsaved Christ rejecting Jews are ENEMIES of the gospel of the grace of God.

    However, God loves Israel for the sake of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, et al.

    In verse 29, the direct application is to Israel, as a NATION. God gave them the gifts mentioned in Romans 9:4. Israel was called out from the other nations of the world to "be a peculiar treasure" to God and "a kingdom of priests" and "an holy nation" (Exodus 19:5-6). These are things concerning which God will not change His mind.

    Throughout the scriptures, God repents (changes His mind) about many things. He repented that He "had made man on the earth" (Genesis 6:6). He repented that He "had made Saul king" (1 Samuel 15:35). More often "the Lord repented of the evil He brought upon a people" (Exodus 32:14; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 26:19; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:10).

    However, God will never repent of calling Israel out as a nation. That calling was IMMUTABLE. It was based upon UNCONDITIONAL PROMISES made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Verse 29 can also be applied SPIRITUALLY to members of the body of Christ. Every believer has a calling from God. Every believer has been given gifts by the Holy Spirit to fulfill that calling. The Lord won't repent of those things but that doesn't mean that every believer will use the gifts given him. Israel didn't.

    The remaining verses in this passage confirm that God counts EVERYONE in sin and unbelief. As was stated earlier in Romans 3 "All have sinned . . . there is none that doeth good . . . there is none righteous, no, not one . . . for we have proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin".

    --- Continued on next post ---
     
  5. R. J.

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    Romans Chapter Eleven (Continued)

    Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

    Verse 33 lists some of the things that man can not comprehend about God. If God didn't reveal them to us, we wouldn't be able to "find" them since "His ways are past finding out".


    Let's look at a couple of Old Testament verses that speak of God's "ways":


    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


    Here are some additional things about God that are beyond man's understanding:
    1. "The peace of God, which passeth all understanding" (Philippians 4:7)
    2. "The unsearchable riches of Christ" (Ephesians 3:8)
    3. "His unspeakable gift" (2 Corinthians 9:15)
    4. "Joy unspeakable" (1 Peter 1:8)
    5. "Unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" (2 Corinthians 12:4)
    Verse 34 is a quote from Isaiah 40:13. Here is an additional verse that speaks of spiritual discernment:


    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

    "Who hath known the mind of the Lord?" John Calvin certainly did not and nor did anyone taking him seriously. When ANYONE starts talking about God decreeing, IN ETERNITY, who would be saved and who would be lost, they don't know where they are or what they are talking about. They don't know whether He did or not. And, if He did, they don't know whether He CHANGED His mind, IN TIME, about anything decreed in eternity or not.

    Paul asks the same question in the following verse:


    1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    Notice that Christians have the ability to think about things the way God thinks about things. Unfortunately, that does not mean that Christians will necessarily EXERCISE this ability.


    Again, from verse 34, "Who hath been his counsellor?". Even though Christians have the "mind of Christ", they are not going to INSTRUCT God about anything (1 Corinthians 2:16).


    To paraphrase verse 35, the question is "whoever beat God to the punch and gave Him something FIRST so that the Lord is indebted to the person who gave". The answer is "No one." Everything we have to give was first given to us by God.


    And, finally, in verse 36 the chapter is closed on the preeminence of Jesus Christ. The "all things" is a reference to verse 33 (i.e. the riches, wisdom, knowledge, judgments, etc.). Let's see where else Paul refers to "all things":


    Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

    The preeminence of Christ makes Him the "head of the body" (Colossians 1:16-18). In conclusion, Christ is afforded "glory for ever" due to His preeminence.


    --- End of Romans Chapter Eleven ---
     
  6. Jarthur001

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    I love this line found in the post just above....

    "Anyone who doesn't believe those things is ignorant and conceited"

    This about says it all. This one just may have to go in my book..."Yes He Really Said That!!"

    :)
     
  7. Tom Butler

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    I missed that line. My eyes glazed over about halfway through the first post, and I fell asleep.
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    I knew someone was going to come along and straighten you fellows out. :laugh: :laugh:
     
  9. PreachTREE

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    No. They were elect. Then they didn't bow. Not bowing the knee wasn't the condition for election, it was the result.

    Hmmm....sounds like super-duper hyper wacko dispensationalism to me. In any economy throughout any biblical time (past, present, future), men are saved through faith. Doing works for salvation is anti-God.
     
  10. PreachTREE

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    oh yeah, stop preaching and instead interact.:thumbsup: Please shorten your posts. :BangHead:
     
  11. donnA

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    Addressing post #4, God will judge the jews based not how they kept the law, but on Jesus, did they know Him. Same as us.
     
  12. Mel Miller

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    ________________________________________________
    Too bad none of these could be here to defend themselves:

    Quote:
    "John Calvin
    The Puritans
    Charles Spurgeon
    Benjamin Warfield
    A. T. Robertson

    They were ALL Amillennialists or Post-millennialists".
    ____________________________________________
    Spurgeon was NOT an Amil; but was one of our earlier Pre-Mils! And he did not teach "salvation by faith plus works" during the great tribulation...as promoted below.

    Quote:
    ___________________________________________________________
    "At that time, it will take MORE that receiving Christ to save a person. The Body of Christ has been completed and has been raptured to Heaven. The Holy Spirit is no longer INDWELLING believers as He was in the Church age. There are TWO bodies of believers on earth (during the tribulation):
    1. a Gentile body (Revelation 7:9 and 7:14)
    2. a Jewish body (Revelation 7:4-8)
    In that day, a person is saved by trusting in Christ AND keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12)".
    ____________________________________________

    Of this "Gentile body", in heaven, it is said of them that their robes had been "washed and made white in the
    blood of the Lamb". Rev.7:14. Of this "Jewish body", sealed with the Lamb's name, it is said that they will "follow the Lamb wherever He goes"! Rev.714; 14:1-5.

    Of the Martyrs, who "love not their life unto death," it is said "they will serve God as pillars in heaven's Temple,
    reign with Christ for 1000 years and be shepherded by the Lamb in person"!!! Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.

    Of how many present-day Church Members can the fulfillment of this promise apply...short of Maryrdom? Is it not the supreme reward to be won by the Saints during the great tribulation?? And why should the above
    "promotion" be even considered as truth that "they are saved by MORE than faith in Christ because they keep His commandments"???

    Tom:
    This is not directed to you personally. I just thought about the above being "asleep"!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #12 Mel Miller, Dec 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2006
  13. EdSutton

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    Strange how some chapters of the brother's 'Romans' postings have drawn a lot of response, and some have drawn none. :rolleyes:

    Ed
     
  14. Mel Miller

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    ___________________________________________________________

    Ed S,

    Interesting thought. My motive is to respond to certain statements that
    seem to contradict the truth. Are we to believe that God cannot save
    and include anyone in the Body of Christ who takes the Mark of the Beast because the Holy Spirit will not be here to INDWELL believers during the Tribulation of 7 years?

    The author, who does not seem to care about supporting his views, has
    failed to report that the two "groups" of believers (One "Gentile and the
    other Jewish") are "washed in the blood of the Lamb". The Holy Spirit, he
    affirms, does not INDWELL these two groups while they are on the earth
    during the tribulation; yet they "come out of the great tribulation" and
    are obviously INDWELT by the Holy Spirit while they are in heaven.

    I agree that both Jews and Gentiles are found in heaven as recorded in
    Rev.7:9-17; but why are they said to have "their robes washed; made
    white in the blood of the Lamb" after going to heaven? Rev.7:9-14.

    I wonder if the author will respond and explain why these will "serve God as pillars in the Temple for 1000 years", who were allegedly not INDWELT by the Holy Spirit on earth; yet that they suddenly become recipients of the highest possible reward promised to "Church Overcomers"...having been martyred and are already seen in heaven before Jesus comes with His rewards for "every believer"!?! Rev.3:11-12; Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12.

    Mel Milller www.lastday.net
     
  15. Tom Butler

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    I didn't think it was. But I was too sleepy to worry about it.
     
  16. R. J.

    R. J.
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    I suggest that you post those statements that "seem to contradict the truth", give your scriptural case for what your believe to be the truth and I will respond accordingly.

    Mel, my friend, you have COMBINED several disconnected things into your question making it difficult to provide ONE reasonable answer. I will address various parts of your question as follows:
    1. Almighty God can save anyone He chooses by any means He chooses.
    2. The body of Christ will be gathered (i.e. raptured) BEFORE the Great Tribulation when the "beast" will require his "mark".
    3. The Holy Spirit was sent following Christ's ascension to heaven. Although Old Testament saints could be "filled with the Holy Spirit", they were NOT INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit as the earnest of their redemption.
    4. There is NO scripture that states that "Tribulation Saints" will be INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit.
    5. There is NO scripture that supports your SUPPOSITION that there is a "7 year tribulation". The scriptural facts are that the apostate Jews will be saying "Peace and safety" prior to the START of the Great Tribulation in the MIDST of Daniel's 70th week.
    6. Simply because a "Tribulation Saint" keeps that commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus does NOT mean they are members of the body of Christ which has already been gathering BEFORE the Great Tribulation.
    7. The body of Christ STARTED with the sending of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2). It will be completed with the gathering BEFORE the start of the time period known as the "day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5).
    8. Old Testament Saints are NOT part of the body of Christ.
    9. Tribulation Saints will NOT be part of the body of Christ.
    No, Mel, I have not "failed to report" anything. By saying this, you impugn the testimony of the Romans bible study. By INFERENCE, you are stating that I have "covered up" some scriptural facts that you believe are pertinent to the bible study.

    NOTE TO THE READER: Although Mel isn't clear as to which "groups" he is speaking, please be advised that I believe that both Jews and Gentiles are included within the body of Christ. Upon being baptised into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, the member is no longer consider "Jew or Gentile".

    I also believe that both Jews and proselyte Gentiles will respond to the preaching of the "Gospel of the Kingdom" during the Great Tribulation. Additionally, I believe that Gentiles will respond to the preaching of the "Everlasting Gospel" following the Great Tribulation but before the end of Daniel's 70th week.

    I "affirm" no such thing. Mel puts words in my mouth with his last sentence. The scriptures DO NOT teach that anyone's soul in heaven is INDWELT by the Holy Spirit.

    Tribulation Saints are NOT indwelt by the Holy Spirit. In contrast to a member of the body of Christ who IS indwelt by the Holy Spirit AND can NOT lose their salvation, the Tribulation Saint CAN lose their salvation IF the do not "keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus". This scriptural fact is confirmed in Revelation 2 and 3 where members of the seven churches can have their names blotted out of the book of Life.

    Because they "keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus". The fact that tribulation saints do this DOES NOT mean they are part of the body of Christ which has ALREADY been raptured.

    There are many members of the FAMILY of GOD. It is presumptuous of members of the body of Christ to believe that EVERYONE is part of the body of Christ. When God will be "all in all" is confirmed in the following verse:

    1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    I wonder if you practice this type of intimidation regularly. I hope not.

    Intimidated or not, I will explain my position as clearly as possible:

    1. There is no "Church Overcomers" term in the scriptures. This is a manufactured term to support your false supposition that Revelation 2 and 3 speak of the body of Christ. These chapters speak of assemblies of end times Jews. There are at least 15 scriptural reasons for this, the most significant of which is the fact that there are LIARS who say they are JEWS within these assemblies.
    2. The Millennial Kingdom is the promised EARTHLY kingdom to the Jews.
    3. Members of the body of Christ are promised an HEAVENLY inheritance with at least one caveat.
    4. Those members of the body of Christ who SUFFER with Christ will be JOINT HEIRS (i.e. both earthly and heavenly).
    5. Martyred Tribulation Saints are given esteemed positions within the Millennial Kingdom which is PRIMARILY for Israel.
    6. Members of the body of Christ are REWARDED at the Judgment Seat of Christ which is in HEAVEN and apart from Daniel's 70th week and the Millennial Kingdom.
    In Christ,

    Jim
     
  17. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    Jim,

    Before I reply more fully, please give the "15 reasons" why Rev.2-3 does
    NOT describe the Body of Christ nor speak of Church Overcomers.

    Quote:
    ______________________________________________________________
    There is no "Church Overcomers" term in the scriptures. This is a manufactured term to support your false supposition that Revelation 2 and 3 speak of the body of Christ. These chapters speak of assemblies of end times Jews. There are at least 15 scriptural reasons for this, the most significant of which is the fact that there are LIARS who say they are JEWS in these assemblies.
    _______________________________________________________

    I would also appreciate it if you would explain why the Martyrs
    "coming out of the great tribulation" are called "saints"; yet should
    NOT be included among "the souls of all the saints that come with Jesus" as Paul teaches. I Thess.4:13-14; I Thess.3:13.

    It is not my purpose to intimidate you; but to find out why you believe there are "two bodies of believers" on earth during the great tribulation;
    but that neither body is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Where has He gone?

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  18. jne1611

    jne1611
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    You said it! This Salvation by works/faith/& works again/ and yet all by the blood is crazy. Sounds like something I read once from a book out of FL. I can not for the life of me understand how any body can believe that one sinner will be in heaven who got in any other way than the blood of Christ ALONE! The law could not justify them. Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    The blood of bulls and calves could not take their sins away. Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
    And a salvation by works would have been just as much a yoke to them as to us or the future saints. Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

    Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
    Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
     
    #18 jne1611, Dec 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2006
  19. EdSutton

    EdSutton
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    While any or all of this either you or R.J. have posted may or may not be 'Biblically correct', what exactly does this have to do specifically with Romans 11? My previous response had nothing to do with either you, Mel, or R.J., per se, but was a comment on what I generally perceive as a side note (and the opening taken by one or the other 'advocates' of a position), toward the C/A ideas.

    Ed
     
  20. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    _____________________________________________________________

    Ed S,

    My remarks in Post #12 were a response to part of RJ's original Post #1:

    Quote:
    ____________________________________________________________
    PROPHETICALLY, these verses point to the salvation of the Jews in the great tribulation. Elijah shows up in Revelation 11 and the Jews are required to bow down to an image of the Antichrist or they will die (Revelation 13:14-15).

    At that time, it will take MORE that receiving Christ to save a person. The Body of Christ has been completed and has been raptured to Heaven. The Holy Spirit is no longer INDWELLING believers as He was in the Church age. There are TWO bodies of believers on earth:

    1. a Gentile body (Revelation 7:9 and 7:14)
    2. a Jewish body (Revelation 7:4-8)
    In that day, a person is saved by trusting in Christ AND keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). Worshipping the Antichrist and his image is an automatic ticket to Hell (Revelation 14:9-11).
    ____________________________________________________________

    I naturally objected to his unproven assumptions:
    1. That the Holy Spirit will no longer "indwell" believers in the tribulation.
    2. Salvation will be obtained by "more than receiving Christ to be saved".
    3. There are "two bodies" of believers on earth during great tribulation.
    4. Anyone worshiping the AC has an "automatic ticket to Hell".

    When I asked RJ if #4 meant that God will be unable to save worshipers
    of the Beast, he denied that he said "the two bodies of believers will not
    be indwelt by the Holy Spirit" during the great tribulation and claimed that
    Gentiles could "lose their salvation" during that same period. He also affirmed that God could save anyone at any time.

    Ed,
    You raised the question of why some things RJ wrote had elicited a response and other things he wrote did not evoke a response. What
    was your motive in asking such a question unless you were asking for the reason we made them...none of which were congratulatory?

    I didn't see how RJ could label Charles Spurgeon as guilty of being
    "ignorant and deceitful" after calling him an Amil. Tom Butler said he fell
    "asleep" reading RJ's stuff. I thought of how Spurgeon, being "asleep in Jesus", is unable to defend himself; for I know Spurgeon was Pre-Mil.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #20 Mel Miller, Dec 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2006

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