Romans Chapter Nine

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by R. J., Dec 22, 2006.

  1. R. J.

    R. J.
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    Romans Chapter Nine
    In this chapter and the two following, Paul deals with the Jews' relationship to God in this age when God is dispensing His grace to all. Let's see what he has to say concerning these things.

    Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; 5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Paul applies the word "conscience" 25 times throughout his epistles. Nine of these applications are in the Corinthians epistles. He even spoke of the conscience of an unsaved person in this verse:

    Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

    In a saved person, the Spirit dwells in the same place as the conscience and bears witness to the truth as Paul states in verse 1. The Spirit strengthens the conscience of the believer.

    Verse 2 demonstrates one of the many paradoxes in a believer's life. Although Paul teaches in 1 Thessalonians 5:16 that we are to "Rejoice evermore", he has continual sorrow in his heart for his Jewish brethren. Take a moment and look at 2 Corinthians 6:7-10 where Paul lists several paradoxes in the believer's life. Notice in the last verse of that passage "As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing."

    For those of you familiar with the hymn "Bringing In The Sheaves", you can see the paradox again in Psalm 126:5-6.

    Paul's great burden for Israel is manifest in verse 3. Paul knew he couldn't do what he wished but his burden was so great that it affected his discernment and common sense. He knew that he was the "apostle of the Gentiles" (Romans 11:13, 15:16) but he went to Jerusalem anyway. Paul was warned by God not to go to Jerusalem in Acts 20. He was warned again by disciples at Tyre in Acts 21. He went anyway. When Paul arrived in the temple at Jerusalem, even the Lord Jesus told him to "get thee quickly out of Jerusalem" (Acts 22:18).

    Paul paid a heavy price for his disobedience. And, what is the point of all this? It is that a BURDEN doesn't always constitute a CALL.

    As in Romans 3:1, Paul speaks of the advantages of the Jews in verses 4 and 5:
    1. They were adopted, as a nation, to be God's son (Numbers 23:9).
    2. They saw the glory of God in the cloud and the fire.
    3. They received the covenants of God. That is, the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12, 15), the Mosiac covenant (Exodus 19, 20) and the Davidic covenant (2 Samuel 7). They were offered the New Covenant in the person of Jesus Christ (Jeremiah 31, Matthew 26 and Hebrews 8).
    4. They received God's written Law and, eventually, ALL of the scriptures (Romans 3:2).
    5. They were given "the service of God" and the instructions for being a "peculiar people".
    6. They were given specific promises by God as found throughout the Old Testament.
    7. They had the Old Testament fathers as their examples.
    8. They are the people through which physically (i.e. Mary) Jesus Christ came.
    Verse 5 speaks of the Deity of Jesus Christ. The KJV shows two expressions of who Christ is:
    1. He is the One "who is over all" and
    2. He is also "God blessed for ever".
    Some new bibles read, like the NWT (i.e. the Jehovah's Witness), "who is over all. Let God be blessed forever." To their credit, the NIV and NASB did not make such a change.

    Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

    In the next few verses, Paul is going to make some distinctions concerning Israel. Verse 6 sets up the first distinction.

    Verse 7 makes the first distinction. Not all of the seed of Abraham are counted as Abraham's children (Genesis 22:2). Only "in Isaac shall thy seed be called".

    Ishmael and Hagar were "cast out" of the family of Abraham. Ishmael has no claim to the inheritance promised by God (Galatians 4:30).

    In verse 8, Paul applies the distinction to New Testament Jews. The Jew who is physically born a Jew is not necessarily a son of God. Look back at Romans 2:28-29 where Paul states "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly . . . But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly."

    In verse 9, "the word of promise" is given to Sarah (Genesis 18:10, 18). That Old Testament promise is applied by a New Testament promise: "the promise of the Spirit through faith" (Galatians 3:14). The "seed" back in verse 7 was a prophetic reference to Christ (Galatians 3:16).

    To summarize this passage, the child of promise is the spiritual child of Abraham and the promise is Jesus Christ. Believers that are IN CHRIST by faith are not only spiritual children of Abraham but also children of God. This applies to Jews (the physically chosen seed) and to Gentiles (the physically rejected seed).

    --- Continued on next post ---
     
  2. R. J.

    R. J.
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    Romans Chapter Nine (Continued)

    Romans 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac; 11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    In this passage, Paul gives a second example of a rejected son, a descendant of Abraham. This rejected son, Esau, along with Ishmael and the rejected sons of Keturah (Genesis 25:1-6) form the modern Moslem nations. Islam is a religion of REJECTS. Unless the Moslem receives the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour, they are "in Arabia, . . . and is in bondage with her children" (Galatians 4:25).

    In verse 11, Paul addresses the children, Jacob and Esau, as being in Rebecca's womb and not having done either good or evil. Paul continues by connecting the election of Israel (i.e. Jacob) with the prophecy being discussed (Genesis 25:23). Contrary to the Calvinist's teachings, the prophecy took place IN TIME, not eternity.

    No election is UNCONDITIONAL as it is based upon "the foreknowledge of God" (1 Peter 1:2). This foreknowledge is clearly seen in the Old Testament passage (Genesis 25:23). It is a statement of PROPHECY based upon God's knowledge of the future.
    Look at verse 13, a quote from Malachi 1:2-3, where God is looking back over His dealings with Edom and Israel. This verse has nothing to do with the individual salvation of Jacob or the individual damnation of Esau.
    Paul is applying statements concerning Esau and Jacob, as the FEDERAL HEADS OF NATIONS, to their individual places within or without the Messianic line of Jesus Christ.

    Listen up, folks. The "election" in verse 11 has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with the foreknowledge of God concerning the characters of Jacob and Esau. Based upon this foreknowledge, God chose the more spiritual of the two to bring forth the line that would bear Jesus Christ.

    There is NOTHING in the passage about "eternal decrees", "unconditional election" or the "reprobation" of the sinner.

    Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.



    This passage is second only to Ephesians 1:4 in being used by Calvinists to "prove" their TULIP system. Here is how the Calvinist reads it:
    For he saith unto Moses, I will put into HEAVEN those whom I have predestinated to go to heaven. I will elect to heaven those for whom the BLOOD PAYS. It is not a sinner who by an act of will receives Jesus Christ, nor of the man that works, but of God who sovereignly elects people WITHOUT THE EXERCISE OF THEIR FREE WILL.


    There are several things WRONG with that interpretation of the passage.
    1. The CONTEXT of verses 10-17 is the Old Testament.
    2. Nobody in the Old Testament was IN CHRIST.
    3. Nobody in the Old Testament was BORN AGAIN.
    4. Nobody was quickened by "irresistible grace" from Genesis to Malachi.
    5. The "willing" of verse 16 has nothing to do with receiving Jesus Christ. Paul's statement is that no man, by an act of will, can make God have mercy on him.
    6. Paul is quoting a verse given to Moses in Exodus 33:19. The SCRIPTURAL precept is that God DECIDES on whom He will have mercy. The Calvinist places this decision BEFORE Genesis 1:1.
    So, the Calvinist has God sending the "elect" to Heaven and the "reprobate" to Hell. As we will see later, in verse 22, the Calvinists teach that God NEEDS the "reprobates" to "showcase" His wrath against sin.

    Therefore, the Calvinist teaches that God made some people for the SOLE PURPOSE of sending them to Hell.

    The scriptural facts are that the verses are simple statements that YOU don't decide whether God will have mercy on you. God bases His decision concerning mercy on the conditions He has set for showing His mercy to a sinner.

    In the New Testament, the application is clear. God has chosen to show sinners mercy IN CHRIST. Anyone who comes to Christ in the way God prescribes (i.e. by faith in His atoning work) receives God's mercy. A sinner can not force God to have mercy upon him, but by doing what the Lord told him to do to get that mercy, the sinner can RECEIVE IT.

    Finally, the New Testament application of verse 18 is that God will show mercy to anyone who comes to Him through His Son. On the other hand, anyone who rejects Christ risks the Holy Spirit not dealing with him at all and even hardening his heart to the Gospel message. Praise the Lord that He is longsuffering and shows mercy to the sinner by sending them the Gospel over and over again.

    --- Continued on next post ---
     
    #2 R. J., Dec 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2006
  3. R. J.

    R. J.
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    Romans Chapter Nine (Continued)

    Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    Let's start with how a lost person might look at this passage. He would look back at verse 19 and say: "If God created me to send me to Hell, then why is He mad at me? After all, I am doing what God made me to do."

    Now let's look how God DID make each of us. We are sons and daughters of ADAM, born under a curse. That means that NOBODY can use the fact that they were born a sinner to reject Christ. As Paul said, God "now commandeth ALL men EVERY WHERE to repent" (Acts 17:30).

    Contrary to the Calvinist's teaching, NOTHING in the passage takes place in eternity. There are no ETERNAL decrees of election and reprobation in the passage. What God makes, He makes IN TIME. What God forms, He forms IN TIME. The "vessel" in verse 20 was formed IN TIME, not eternity.

    Let's look at verse 21 in light of the following verses:

    2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.

    Your status, as a vessel, depends upon what you do with the things that defile you.

    Notice that "What if . . ." begins the sentence that extends through verses 22, 23 and 24. The Calvinist bases his theology on that SUPPOSITION. He goes to verse 22 to show that God reprobates some to Hell. He goes to verse 23 to show that God elects some to Heaven. The Calvinist never considers the question: "What if He didn't?"

    The Calvinist conveniently forget that every "vessel" born is under the wrath of God until that "vessel" receives Christ. Not convinced? Take a look at the following verse:

    Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    To summarize this passage, the Lord calls a person to be saved and the person receives Christ. Next, the Lord calls the believer to be like Christ. The believer now has a choice.
    He can choose to yield himself to the Holy Spirit and live right. In this case, God can display "the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy". That believer is a vessel of honor (2 Timothy 2:21).

    Or, he can choose to follow his flesh and live for the world. God will then display His chastisment of a believer. This believer is a vessel of dishonor.

    When the Lord calls a person to be saved and the person rejects Christ, God can display other attributes such as longsuffering or wrath.

    God's attributes are displayed without violating a person's will or choice.


    --- Continued on next post ---
     
    #3 R. J., Dec 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2006
  4. R. J.

    R. J.
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    Romans Chapter Nine (Continued)

    Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

    This passage consists of quotes from 5 Old Testament verses:
    1. Verse 25 -- Hosea 2:23
    2. Verse 26 -- Hosea 1:10
    3. Verse 27-28 -- Isaiah 10:22-23
    4. Verse 29 -- Isaiah 1:9
    There may be both a SPIRITUAL and a DOCTRINAL application in this passage. Paul may be making a spiritual application to the Gentiles who were not God's people in the Old Testament but are made God's people in the New Testament by faith in Christ.

    This spiritual application could be referring to the SALVATION of the Gentiles but is more likely to be referring to the remnant of Jews saved within the Church Age.

    The doctrinal application is to the remnant of Israel that is saved out of the great tribulation. The Hosea quotes are referencing "the children of Israel" and "the house of Israel".

    Notice in verse 27 that Paul states that "Esaias ALSO crieth concerning the CHILDREN of ISRAEL. He may be implying that the two previous verses were speaking of Israel.

    So, Paul is showing from the Old Testament that not all the Jews in the Church Age will die and go to Hell for rejecting Christ. They are "called the children of the living God".

    In verse 28, the "short work" is doctrinally the great tribulation. Paul gives it a spiritual application in that the best time to get saved is NOW (2 Corinthians 6:2).

    Verse 29 may be a reference to the great tribulation also. Jerusalem "spiritually is called Sodom" in Revelation 11:8. This would indicate that shortly before the start of the great tribulation, the "woman" (i.e. Israel) has fled Jerusalem (Matthew 24:14-16) or the remnant that stayed has been killed (Revelation 11:7).

    Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    In this passage, Paul compares the salvation of the Gentiles to the salvation of the Jews. In the Old Testament, the Gentiles weren't given the Law to guide them into righteousness.

    However, when Paul began preaching the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles, they found what the Jews were seeking. That is, the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

    But, Israel "hath not attained to the law of righteousness" (Romans 9:31). Why? The answer lies in verse 32. The Jews sought righteousness "by the WORKS of the law" and "stumbled at that stumblingstone" which is FAITH.

    These are great New Testament verses that confirm Old Testament FAITH and WORKS for salvation. Those Old Testament folks had to have BOTH.

    Verse 33 is a quote from Isaiah 8:14. This verse is also quoted in 1 Peter 2:6. The "rock" is obviously Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus defines Himself as "the stone" in Matthew 21:42 when He quotes Psalm 118:22. Paul also calls Christ "that Rock" in the following verse:

    1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    --- End of Romans Chapter Nine ---
     
  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Hello R. J.

    From time to time we have these lessons from non-Calvinist. 70% of them I would call drive by shootings. They drive by shoot off at the mouth and a calvinist post their error and this makes them cry and then we never hear from them again. Those that cool down a bit in most cases stay around and we have a good debate. Those that do not, get mad and leave.

    I was wondering if you are one of these that post and run. Did you come here to debate, or are you just educating the foolish Calvinist?

    For some reason I wanted to post this verse...



    In Christ...James
     
  6. R. J.

    R. J.
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    Hi James,

    "From time to time WE . . ."? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

    Being just a farm boy from Kansas, I always figured that it was Presbyterians that espoused Calvinism. I didn't expect to find many Calvinists on a BAPTIST message board.

    The Romans bible study was prepared, in part, as a rebuttal to several Calvinists who came over to the Left Behind Prophecy Club to tell all of us how "non-elect dead babies" are predestined to HELL.

    They all "cut and ran" back to Chuck Missler's charismatic message board when they could do no better than try to CHANGE the scriptures to match their "system".

    No, I am an Independent Baptist bible teacher who REJECTS Calvinism with it's 5 point TULIP stuff. It's a "house of cards" just like the "Covenant Theology" that the Presbyterians also believe.

    In Christ,

    Jim
     
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Jim,

    I understand fully that you hate Calvinist. Your post makes this clear. I was asking if your wanted to debate, or were you just trying to teach us foolish Calvinst.

    BTW...maybe you should read some history books there Jim. Baptist once were nearly all Calvinist. This is not the case now ...I do understand that.

    If you want to talk about it fine. But I can tell you right now that the way your going, you will not last long. 1st you need to lose that hate. 2nd..you may want to consider that maybe you are not the 1st one that has come to the BB with goals to blow down those house of cards.

    Let us know when the lesson is over, and you really want to have a talk. :)
     
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    RC, I find a couple of things here that are interesting.

    1. Your ignorance of Baptist history, and the role Calvinism played in the 18th and 19th centuries.

    2. Your idea that all your stuff is new to this board.

    3. Yours conviction that all the Calvinists here will just be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of material.

    4. Your belief that everybody will even take the time to read it.

    Welcome, my friend. You are welcome to make all your arguments here. But shorter doses, please.
     
  9. donnA

    donnA
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    Take time to read it? Life's too short for novel length posts, especially incorrect ones.
     
  10. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever
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    Amen sista!
     
  11. jne1611

    jne1611
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    I'll Second That Amen!
     
  12. jne1611

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    Quote: No, I am an Independent Baptist bible teacher who REJECTS Calvinism with it's 5 point TULIP stuff. It's a "house of cards" just like the "Covenant Theology" that the Presbyterians also believe. End Quote.

    There is no bigger "house of cards" than the dispensational 4 salvation's or however many you may espouse. I think you will find more than Calvinists disagree with you on these points.
     
  13. Hanna

    Hanna
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    Amen

    And Amen:1_grouphug:
     

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