Rome teaches "Works Salvation"

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Jerry Shugart, Nov 17, 2003.

  1. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    According to the catechism of Rome,one must observe the Ten Commandments in order to attain salvation:

    "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments"(Catechism #2068).

    The "Ten Commandments" are a part of "the law",and Paul says that no one can be justified before God by the works of "the law":

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"
    (Gal.3:10,11).

    The Ten Commandments are described by Paul as being in regard to the "ministration of death"(2Cor.3:6,7),but Rome says that observing the Ten Commandments brings eternal life.

    Paul also says that the Ten Commandments have been "done away" and "abolished" as far as anyone's salvation is concerned (2Cor.3:11,13),but Rome teaches that they are still needed in order to bring salvation.As usual Rome refuses to believe what is so plain in Scripture:

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth"(Ro.10:4).

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
  2. Yelsew

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    The Ten Commandments remain in force. Jesus said I have not come to do away with the law, but to complete the law. Therefore the Catholics are accurate in that one must observe the Ten Commandments for that is what one who believes in Jesus Christ does.

    What Paul is telling us is that Jesus' death on the cross takes away the penalty for violating "the Ten", plus all the rest. Therefore such violations (Sin) is not accounted against the sinner in regards to Salvation, because the penalty has been paid already for the sinner.

    If you look at Exodus 20, You will see the law but there is no penalty for violating the law associated with the law. In other words there is no penalty for using the lords name in vain. However, it is sin to violate the law of God. The penalty for all sins is "death". Jesus paid that penalty for sin, while not removing the Law.

    So Jerry, the Catholics are right to teach that one must obey the Ten Commandments.

    What do they teach about Salvation? Do they say that one must have faith PLUS something else?

    If one has faith one will be obedient to the object of that faith!

    Also please observe the order in which the salvation requirements are listed in the document you quoted. FAITH first, then BAPTISM, Then observance of the LAW. I don't read that statement as FAITH PLUS BAPTISM PLUS OBSERVANCE OF THE TEN.
     
  3. CatholicConvert

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    Jerry --

    I'm sure that Carson will log in here and correct your misunderstanding, therefore I will not say too much here.

    Your basic problem is that you misunderstand what St. Paul is discussing when he speaks of the law. He is not talking about the moral law of God....he is talking about the ceremonial laws which kept the Jews in a state of righteousness when they were kept. Paul especially looks to circumcision, and this is from several Protestant commentators as well.

    The big BIG argument that the apostles faced almost from the inception of the Church was from the Judaizers who insisted that without circumcision there could be no salvation. This is what St. Paul is talking about when he discusses the law, NOT obedience to the moral law.

    Christ is the fulfillment of every OT rite which prophesied and pointed to Him. That includes circumicision.

    Brother Ed
     
  4. GraceSaves

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    That, and you are confusing justification with salvation. That's a big problem for you right there.

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth"(Ro.10:4).

    The same word for "righteousness," DIKAIOSUNE, is used for "justification." I agree that we cannot merit justifcation through observance of the law.
     
  5. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    Yelsew,

    Of course there were penalties for violating the "law":

    "Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do His commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day...Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them"(Deut.27:10,26).

    And that is the same thing that Paul says:

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"
    (Gal.3:10,11).
    As I have already proven,the Ten Commandments are not a way to salvation for all who believe:

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth"(Ro.1o:4).
    Yes,the believer should be obedient to the commands of God,but that in no way justifies the teaching that one must obseve the Ten Commandments in order to attain salvation.

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
  6. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    CatholicConvert,

    It is you who has a problem with understanding what Paul is speaking of when he speaks of "the law".

    Here we can see that the reference to "the law" includes "all things which are written in the book of the law":

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"
    (Gal.3:10,11).

    Are you willing to argue that the "Ten Commandments" were not written in the "book of law"?
    No,James explicitly states that the argument in regard to the Judaizers was in regard to "circumcision" and "the law":

    "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment"(Acts15:24).

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
  7. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    GraceSaves,

    It is the "righteous" who will inherit the kingdom of God:

    "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father"(Mt.13:34).

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
  8. GraceSaves

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    GraceSaves,

    It is the "righteous" who will inherit the kingdom of God:

    "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father"(Mt.13:34).

    In His grace,--Jerry
    </font>[/QUOTE]I don't disagree. That also does not address what I wrote, that justification is not the same as salvation, while justication is necesary for salvation.
     
  9. Yelsew

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    Jerry, You missed my point!

    I did not say that there is no penalty for violation of the law. What I said is that in Exodus 20 there is no penalty stipulated.

    The decalogue is the overall set of Laws that bring civility and community to civilization. This set of Laws is truly the basis for all civil law the world over. One cannot believe in Jesus Christ and continue to violate this set of Law, for truly Jesus Christ is the embodiment of this Law.

    Jesus Christ is also the propitiation for ALL violations of the law. He took upon himself the very heavy penalty for sin, ALL sin, including the sins of the unbeliever, and he paid the price so that we can have life and life abundant.

    Our life is through Jesus Christ whether or not we are believers. Our eternal life depends entirely upon us, because God has already done all the work necessary for our salvation. We must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah, because those who do not so believe, do not receive the Free Gift of God which is eternal life.

    Believing is not a work for humans, anymore than it is for a sheep. It is part of the work of the Father (who has done all the work necessary for man to believe) that brings or redeems man into the sheepfold. The sheep, those who believe, hear his voice and follow him. Jesus said that "...that whosoever believeth..."

    Rome does not teach "WORKS SALVATION" But rather Salvation is by human faith in God!

    Do you acknowledge that? Then stop bashing our BELIEVING BROTHERS AND SISTERS! Yes, by all means, criticize the false doctrines wherever they may be found. Help the understanding of "the faith", but don't beat up on our brothers.
     
  10. CatholicConvert

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    Jerry --

    Let's be sure we are communicating here.

    Are you saying that a person, once saved and placed into the family of God, has absolutely no need to be obedient to the moral law of God? I don't think you mean that, but I would like to hear from your own mouth exactly what you mean by the idea that we do not have to keep the 10 Commandments in order to obtain eternal life.

    I also think you are mixing up salvation with eternal life. They are not the same thing. Salvation is the act, by God's gracious will alone and with nothing contributed on our part, whereby we were potentially delivered by the death of Christ and experientially delivered when we respond by the calling of the Holy Spirit. We could not die for ourselves and please God, nor can we call ourselves unto God. The idea that we can is Pelegianism and has been condemned by the Church over 1500 years ago.

    To be saved is to be delivered. We are in a state of death in Adam (Romans 5:12). This state is upon the entire human race, every man and woman born, until we are given new life in Christ and adopted into His family by grace.

    In Adam = Old life and death (separation from God)

    In Christ = New life and restoration to God

    However, having been made a child of God, and entered into His gracious covenant of life, we must continue faithfully as covenant keepers. If you understand how a covenant works, you will understand that covenants have certain terms which fall under the heading of "oaths/sanctions". You may see an example of this oath taking in Deut. 28 - 29. All covenants are taken with oaths and sanctions which fall upon those who break the covenant.

    The Moral Law of God is the term of covenant by which we "keep covenant" with God through Christ. Even as we keep covenant, it is Christ within us by His Spirit Who enables us to do so. Again, this is nothing we can do in and of ourselves without God's gracious help. We exercise our will to obey, and Christ/God within makes us able to follow that will and actually obey, being thus pleasing children of the Father.

    But when we choose to obey, we break that covenant with God. If the sin is serious enough, we sever any and all relationship we have with the family and put ourselves outside of the camp. The Parable of the Prodigal is just such a picture of a son breaking the covenant bond with his father and going from the household into the wilderness of sin. And had the Prodigal DIED in the "far country" of sin, he would not have received the inheritance.

    Eternal life is the inheritance of believers. Our Elder Brother, Christ Jesus, has obtained it for all those adopted into the Kingdom Family, but like all inheritances, it can be lost by our disobedience and wickedness -- if we do not "come to our senses" and repent, returning to the Father's household.

    Jesus referred to eternal life as "the inheritance". So did St. Paul. It is a shame that Catholic teaching is not a bit more precise in its wording for folks like you. We just assume that when people read the things written, they will understand the context....but in fact, that is not always easy, given the penchant for anyone to "read into" the text of the moment.

    Brother Ed

    PS

    Indeed. So if you do not actually DO righteousness by keeping the moral law of God, then are you really righteous? Scripture says no.

    And notice, by the way, that the verse you quoted supports my statements. The "kingdom of God" (i.e., eternal life) is an inheritance.
     
  11. Carson Weber

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    Hi Jerry,

    You wrote, According to the catechism of Rome,one must observe the Ten Commandments in order to attain salvation

    No, observing the 10 Commandments isn't the cause of our salvation at all. Not observing the moral statutes of the 10 Commandments is what we call "deadly sin", which causes us to lose salvation which has been given to us freely. The observance itself has no causality in our justification.

    The Council of Trent's decrees (which you have not read, obviously) formally declared that the ONLY FORMAL CAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION IS THE JUSTICE OF GOD. I put this statement in bold italics just so that you would remember this before you erroneously teach that Catholics believe in some sort of a system of works-righteousness.

    The "Ten Commandments" are a part of "the law",and Paul says that no one can be justified before God by the works of "the law"

    You're confusing basic morality with the ceremonial precepts of the Mosaic Law (kosher food laws, calendar days, animal sacrifice, circumcision, etc.), which are lumped together under the term "works of the law". This was a standard phrase employed by Jews of First Century Judaism to refer to those works that separated Jew from Gentile and showed that one was a Jew (i.e., a covenant member of the covenant people of God), and this badge of Jewishness is what was known as "justification". Paul demonstrates that justification - this badge of covenant membership - is not displayed through being a Jew outwardly but by being one who lives a life of faith. This entails both Jew and Gentile. This is the main thesis of Romans.

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    The Book of the Law was separate from the Book of the Covenant, and only the latter included the 10 Commandments.

    Paul also says that the Ten Commandments have been "done away" and "abolished"

    No, he doesn't. He demonstrates that Israel has been delivered from the curse of the Old Covenant, which the Law put Israel under. This law was Deuteronomy (Deuteros = second + Nomos = law).

    Before you post anything more on the Bible, go back to Bible school.
     
  12. Yelsew

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    CatholicConvert said,
    With respect I ask,

    What is man saved from?

    What is man saved to?

    The answers to those two questions are DEATH and LIFE ETERNAL respectively.

    Eternal Life is the FREE GIFT OF GOD! Eternal life is what Jesus promised us who believe in Him, and that is why we must come to faith and retain that faith to the end of our natural life. It remains a promise because we do not have or possess that life until we meet the requirement "it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment". This obligation to Death is merely the first death and ALL living flesh must experience it. For it is then that we, in spirit is separated from the corruption of the flesh, taking with us our true nature to be judged. If we are believers, because have faith, we join with the Christ immediately after our works have been judged, though we ourselves are not judged. If we are not believers, our works are judged and then we are judged by being cast into the lake of fire which is the second death, never to be seen or heard from again!

    It is God alone who does the SAVING, and HE saves only those who believe, that is, Have FAITH.

    GOD does the calling! ALL MANKIND IS CALLED, ALL MANKIND ARE BECKONED BY GOD who said, "COME UNTO ME ALL YE WHO ARE WEARY AND HEAVY LADEN AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST". We are given only two possibilities, Respond or Not Respond. There are no other choices! It is by faith that we respond to GOD's call, for nothing else satisfies God. Our works are as filthy rags, our wealth is worthless, and our lives are replete with sin, leaving us destitute of anything good that God could want. Therefore, all we have is faith by which we can respond to God's Call. FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Jesus said the reward for believing is ETERNAL LIFE.

    Our sin state is of little consequence if we but believe in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah, for HE gave himself as the Sacrificial Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. WE are no longer condemned by our sins, only by our unbelief!

    Salvation, the Free gift of God, is ETERNAL LIFE WITH HIS SON JESUS. Any other idea of what salvation is, is pure religiosity, denominational dogma, and frankly, rubbish.

    It is our faith that changes us because when we believe in Jesus we are bound to believe and act upon what Jesus taught us. The apostles writings teach us how to live our faith. If we do not live our faith, there is no evidence we have faith, no fruit, and God prunes his Vine of non fruit bearing branches. It is really that simple. If you do not live your faith, you will be cutoff!
     
  13. Jerry Shugart

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    Carson,

    The words of the carechism are plain.Why can't you deal with words as they are written?

    The catechism says that one musr observe the Ten Commandments in order to attain salvation.
    The catechism says that one must observe the Ten Commandments in order toattain salvation.

    The word "attain" means to "to reach,achieve".It does not mean "to lose".
    Just another lame effort to avoid what the cathesism actually says.
    Do you believe that because Rome tells you it is true,Carson?

    Did you ever consider going to the Bible to see what is actually said about the "book of the covenant" and the "book of the law"?

    If you would consult the Scriptures you would see that the two terms are used interchangably.At 2Kings22:8 Hilikiah discovers the "book of the law":

    "And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it"(2Ki.22:8).

    Then a few verses later the same "book of the law" is called the "book of the covenant":

    "...and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD"(2Ki.23:2).
    Are you under the impression that it was the "second law" that "was written and engraved in stone"?

    The reference to being "done away" and "abolished" is from the following verses:

    "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious...For if that which is done away was glorious...that which is abolished"(2Cor.3:7,11,14).
    I would tell you to go back to Bible school but it is obvious that you were never there in the first place.

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
  14. GraceSaves

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    I just think it's funny that you accused the Council of Trent as an effort to ignore what the Catechism says. ;)

    Ya know...since the Catechsim is quoting Trent and all.
     
  15. GraceSaves

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    Brother, why don't you pay attention to THAT bold portion. We are speaking of a man who has been justified, that is, this is for those who have already been justified and made a new creation in Christ.
     
  16. Yelsew

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    Jerry, consider this "requirement" to be Catholicism's declaration that "once saved always saved" is false doctrine.

    Truly the Catechism teaches, in order, FAITH, then Baptism, then observance of the Ten Commandments (good works).

    First of all, Coming to faith is the first step because without faith NO ONE will allow themself to be baptised, nor will they observe the Ten Commandments which they can have no faith in.

    Even in the Old Testament, Faith is what God wanted from the people. Animal Sacrifice, without the faith of the one offering the sacrifice did not please God. He said so!

    Obedience of ALL the Law, without faith, was the same thing in the OT as doing good works without faith is in the NT.

    So, essentially, Jerry, your argument is without merit because we are all required to have faith first then be baptised, then live our faith which is what the Ten Commandments is all about! If you confess Jesus but fail to do the good works, your faith is dead and dead faith cannot save you. Your faith must be a living faith in order to be considered to be faith at all.

    Look at it from God's perspective! He wants those who have the promise of Eternal life to live their temporal lives in a flesh body with mucho gusto! And that comes from observing the commandments that God has given for believers to obey. When we, as believers, do observe the Ten Commandments, God is quite pleased with us and rewards us with Eternal life. Observance of the Ten Commandments is all part of our FAITH, but believing in God, Jesus Christ comes first in every case, and it is such belief which if sustained throughout this natural life that saves us, thereby depriving the second death of any victory.
     
  17. CatholicConvert

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    I agree. Entirely. But remember that the Holy Spirit is called "the earnest of our inheritance" in Ephesians.

    An earnest is a part of the whole which is a pledge and promise of the full amount yet to come at a later time IF the agreement is kept and fulfilled.

    Thus, while we are indeed called out of death and into a state of life, being members of the family, we can turn our backs and forfeit the inheritance. As such, we will be disinherited at the Last Judgment.

    And until we have entered the eternal kingdom, none of us knows if we are among the elect whom God will keep to the end in His good pleasure.

    Brother Ed
     
  18. Johnv

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    I must agree with Gracesaves. The RCC teaches that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. The RCC also teaches that good works (which, imo, would include the keeping of the commandments), are to be done out of obedience.
     
  19. Dr. Bob

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    YOU may be speaking of such a person who has truly been regenerated, but I just reread the catechism and it says:

    . . so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments"(Catechism #2068).

    Now unless I've lost my ability to read, I'd say that is a three-fold formula
    faith (not capitalized)
    Baptism
    Commandments observed

    Works are works are works. And we know that no man shall be justified by the deeds of the law . . .
     
  20. GraceSaves

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    Bob,

    For the umpteenth time (I even bolded it), read the whole paragraph. It is speaking to the JUSTIFIED MAN. Salvation is the end goal of a man who is justified. You are eqivicating justification and salvation, and even if you think they are the same thing, Catholic teaching does not do that, so you must read it in line with Catholic thinking. AGAIN, this is a man ALREADY JUSTIFIED, and that is NOT MERITED.

    Because I'm a nice guy, I will requote from that SAME paragraph in the CCC which you WILLFULLY ignored:

    "the Ten Commandments are obligatory for the Christian and that the justified man is still bound to keep them"

    Did you see that? Justified man? Care to ignore it again?
     

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