Rome teaches "Works Salvation"

Thanks Faithcontender. God's blessings be upon you as well

Hi Ed, How you been? Hope you are well. How is your wife? I recall praying for her a while back. Any improvements? Let me and others know if we should continue to pray for her.

You said”

“””To drink means to "take within oneself" so that the water becomes part of oneself.”””

I totally believe that statement. I also believe that the bread and wine are symbolic of that same drinking. We drink the wine and eat the bread and it becomes one with us, it is no longer separate elements. It is a reminder to us that when we drank of the living water (placed our trust in Christ) that he became one with us. He dwells inside of me in a way that he can never be separated from me. (argument for Eternal security). That is the beauty of remembering the Lord’s Supper.

Ed, the living water, once drank never needs to be drank again because there is no more thirst. You sound as if you sit around and sip the living water every day. That is not consistent with the words Jesus used. Come on Ed, chug that water and never thirst again!! (I didn’t mean it imply you were not saved, but it fit so nicely in the sentence I had to say that. )

Take care, and btw when you call a 41 year old “kid” you are really dating yourself.
In Christ,
Brian

 

Since sanctification would be a life process, and the verses you kindly posted deal with what happens when life here is over, we almost agree.

Almost.

Justification - instant upon salvation.
Sanctification - gradual.

 

Since sanctification would be a life process, and the verses you kindly posted deal with what happens when life here is over, we almost agree.

Almost.

Justification - instant upon salvation.
Sanctification - gradual. </font>[/QUOTE]Sanctification is the process of coming to faith, it is the process that gets us to being "set apart". It is the transition from sinner to saint that occurse from initial hearing of the word until the spirit of man is solidly convinced of who and what Jesus is and comes to rely on Jesus. That sanctification occurs during this natural life. It is what enables the one sanctified to pass from death unto life eternal thus avoiding the judgment and being cast into the lake of fire.

If one is not sanctified before passing through the first death, there is nothing on the other side that can sanctify the one.

 

I guess some people do not have their own thoughts on matters of spirituality.

 

Brian --

Are you REALLY 41!! Man, you look really younger in that icon/picture in your posts. I thought maybe mid 30's!!

Not what Jesus said. Read John 6 again. He makes it clear that we are LITERALLY eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood. Symbolisms cannot save anyone.

Oh Brian, you are sooooo close. Just take that truth and apply it to Christ Himself. Again, remember the marital covenant. Marriage is not a piece of paper. It is UNION!!!

No such thing Brian. Eternal security is only after we obtain the inheritance, which is eternal life. We are still on the journey down here.

Now I will give you this. There are those who are "the elect of God" They will persevere to the end. That is both Scripture and Catholic teaching. But since neither you nor I know if we are of that group, we cannot teach "eternal security" as a blanket statement for everyone.

Well of course I do, or at least I try to. I am not a Greek scholar, but this idea of "one drink and no more thirst" is probably the same as the "once believe and ever be saved" idea from John 3:16. The Greek there should read like this:


"For God so loved the world that whosover believeth and continues to believe upon Him shall have eternal life."

Once again, the KJB is a horrendous translation of the tense in the Greek. I imagine the same could be said of the verse you quote. We must not only drink, but continue to drink.

And that is consistent with covenantalism also. Brian, salvation is a covenant. All the non-Catholics here seem to wish to ignore that reality. Jesus said it: "This is the New Covenant in my Blood..." Therefore, any ideas regarding salvation have to fall within covenantal paradigms or they are simply false, no matter how appealing they are (such as "once saved -- always saved")

Wife is not doing good. Life is.....well, life, which means it has its shares of daily hassles and daily blessings.

Hope you are well also.

Brother Ed

 

So what you really mean is that the death on the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ was also worthless, since He did that in the Flesh also, right?

Why don't YOU stop and THINK before you spit out your Protestant knee jerk nostrums!!??

Brother Ed

 

Isa 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Rom 1:3 "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"

Col 1:21-22 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:"

Heb 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"

1 Peter 4:1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:"

I'd say Christ's flesh is pretty profitable indeed, in many different ways!

 

So what you really mean is that the death on the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ was also worthless, since He did that in the Flesh also, right?

Why don't YOU stop and THINK before you spit out your Protestant knee jerk nostrums!!??

Brother Ed </font>[/QUOTE]Jerry also ignores the critical distinction between "my flesh" (as spoken by Christ four times in John 6, in addition to "my blood" three times) and "the flesh."

I know as Catholics we believe Christ's flesh, His Incarnation, His death on the cross, have profitted us everything.

 

I have not studied what exactly constitutes "the book of the law" from the vantage point of a theologian. My interests have been elsewhere.

However, in listening to tapes by those who are far, far more studied and learned than I am, I have heard it taught that the reference to the "law" in Romans had to do primarily with the ceremonial law of God as given to the Jews in rites they were to perform. The main rite and central focus of this passage regarding "the law" had to do with circumcision.

Romans was written to show that there was no preferential treatment given to any group on the face of the earth. The Jews of that time thought that because of their ethnicity and their circumcision and their maleness (they believed that women and Gentiles were "dogs" who were without souls and would not enter the Kingdom) that they had basically a free pass into the Kingdom. St. Paul's labors in Romans are expressly to put this idea to rest, especially their reliance on circumcision.

Now....if you want the full version with all the theological underpinnings, contact Scott Hahn at Franciscan University of Steubenville and I'm sure he will set you straight on this.

The "seal" of the Holy Spirit is simply an identifying mark which sets the professing believer apart from the rest of the world as belonging to God. It is not I who am adding to the Word of God. It is you who is redifining terms to suit your OSAS heresy.

St. Paul wrote warnings against falling away in every one of his epistles except one. Strange behavior for one whom you claim was teaching OSAS.

Yes, Jerry, I see that you can quote scripture. Now answer me this. WHAT exactly does it mean that the Holy Spirit is the "earnest of our inheritance?" I want to hear it from your own keypad please.

Wrong again. Our relationship to God is a covenant and covenants are CONDITIONAL. They can be broken. This is why St. Paul wrote to believers warning them against falling away.

Yer answer please. And BTW -- I added nothing to the Word of God....you just don't like Catholic exegesis.

Here is just one example of St. Paul's writings in which he states what I said...you git eternal life only if you remain faithful to the end

Seems that St. Paul had no knowledge of OSAS either.

 

Good, looks like Catholics would be in complete agreement with you then. So, why do Catholics think the Ten Commandments are still relevant? Maybe because abstaining from sin is still relevant. Maybe abstaining from lying, theft, disrespect, adultery and murder are still relevant. Maybe Paul writing that murderers and adulterers will not inherit the kindgom of God is still relevant. Maybe Jesus telling the rich man to keep the commandments(yes the big 10) is still relevant.

Avoiding sin is something that true members of the body of Christ would want to do, not because they think they have to or that it will justify them.

 

CatholicConvert, If you are going to use "ETERNAL LIFE" as the reason to partake of the Eucharist, e.g.

and then say that FAITH ALONE is bad doctrine

is to completely discredit Jesus For he also said

Furthermore, Unbelievers do not willingly partake of the Eucharist unless deceived into doing so. So it all comes back to FAITH ALONE! Faith preceeds everything spiritual! Faith is sufficient unto eternal life.

Now Brother Ed a couple questions that you need to answer: When Jesus saves, the saved one is:

SAVED FROM WHAT?

SAVED INTO WHAT?

 

Jerry Shugart said,

Unless of course, you grieve the Holy Spirit into leaving you. Holiness and sinfulness cannot co-exist.

 

is to completely discredit Jesus For he also said

</font>[/QUOTE]So it comes down to what "believing" actually entails. Is it a one-time action? If so, how long does it take? A second? Less? More? Or, is it a way of life?

If it's a way of life, what does it mean to spend a life believing in Christ? Do we really believe in Christ if we don't do what He says we are to do? Do we believe in Him if we don't love Him? And can we love Him without doing what He tells us to do? Do we believe in Him if we don't do the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph.2:10)

There's a whole lot of theology wrapped up in "believeth"!

What I think (drumroll!) is that a lot of you folks refuse to acknowledge that there can be a faith that doesn't automatically and inevitably lead to good works. And yet James warns us against that very thing.